Depot build K98k

Hi. I'm new to the forum and thought I'd post some pics of a sporterized depot build K98k. I bought this as part of a package and thought I was buying a regular VZ 24 that had been modified. Once I was able to examine it in person, I noticed the Nazi proofs, and with some research found it is a depot build K98k. I'd like to restore it and I'm looking for any information regarding the rifle itself and what stock would be most correct to return it to original configuration.

The barrel is a Geco, 0,2 marked unit with waffenamt 26 on it and 38Ru356 stamped as well. The bolt stop/ejector, follower, and guard screws are not numbered. The bolt has been ground and renumbered to match the receiver. It has a small waffenamt 140 on the underside at the base of the handle and no firing proof on the rear of the base. The extractor has been numbered to match as well. The cocking piece and shroud don't match the receiver, but match themselves. The safety has been numbered to match the receiver as have the floorplate and trigger guard.

I'm not to sure if the sportered stock it came in is original to the rifle. I'm also not sure as to its origin. You can see where the takedown disc and sling holes were, but the finger grooves on the forend are puzzling.

That is rare gun. Built by the Army Ordnance Depot at Posen out of spare parts probably around 1941/42. The XXI indicates Wehrkreis (military district) 21 where the depot was located. It probably would have used a WaA359 armorers stock with a flat butt plate. Bands would have been milled and numbered to the gun.

The stock on the gun is trash, basically. The stock was cut down, the checkering was added post war, and the finger groove could be added as well. It may have been numbered on the inside of the stock, so you could check there...

Even though it will never be "correct", it is a very rare piece and worth restoring to military trim IMO.

I totally called it being a posen jeremy!

359 armourer stock. Now youve got a goal.

CanadianAR said:

I totally called it being a posen jeremy!

359 armourer stock. Now youve got a goal.

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Hey buddy! You were right!

Thanks for the good info RyanE. The WaA359 stock is a big help. Probably very hard to find though.

Worth restoring - here's mine from the same depot for comparison (mine is missing bands).

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?4815-Posen-depot-build-rifle&highlight=posen+depot

As far as the stock, just find you a good flat buttplate laminate stock, or any armorers flat buttplate stock for that matter. The E/359 ones are not too hard to find, I recently found one myself for a project.

Please forgive my ignorance,stupidity or the combination but why does it have to be a 359 armourers stock?

It doesn't have to be e/359, at least two have byf armorer spare stocks, one looks like maybe a "C" stock, most are rc's and original rifles with the original stock are not common. Main thing is laminate flat buttplate, preferably an armors spare. Some of the stocks might have been salvaged stocks too, the eastern depots seemed a little less prone to details or quality. They seemed to scavenge more than the more "German" depots.

ClintJ said:

Please forgive my ignorance,stupidity or the combination but why does it have to be a 359 armourers stock?

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SimsonSuhl said:

It doesn't have to be e/359, at least two have byf armorer spare stocks, one looks like maybe a "C" stock, most are rc's and original rifles with the original stock are not common. Main thing is laminate flat buttplate, preferably an armors spare. Some of the stocks might have been salvaged stocks too, the eastern depots seemed a little less prone to details or quality. They seemed to scavenge more than the more "German" depots.

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Thanks. I thought these depots were just taking piles of wounded K98k's and making good ones as they scavenged. Didnt they have some POW's doing that?

Thanks for the additional info regarding the proper stock SimsonSuhl and mrfarb. Now I know what I need to be looking for.

Doesnt have to be mint

Thanks for posting...we can learn from these rifles even if they are not complete or minty. We learn from rifles like this just as much as from others. Not everything posted here has to be perfect condition.

Are all depot rebuilt rifles marked with the Roman numeral facility designation?
Pat

The Roman numerals are for the Wehrkreise. Germany was broken down into military districts, Imperial era by AK (Army Corps), post WWI, by ID (Infantry Divisions forming the basis for the districts), under Hitler's rearmament, it was based around the Corps again, and each Wehrkreise had a HQ, and usually HZa, HNZa, HMA, etc.. (ordnance depots) These depots stored and repaired equipment, most specialized, many did rifles, but it isn't certain if all did.

These with the Roman numerals are builds, not reworks, most are "new" ordnance spare receivers, but you do see the occasional salvaged Gew.98 receiver, or even the occasional early production 98k receiver recycled as a new rifle. These rifles are new built, usually using "new" ordnance spare barrels and stocks, often a new receiver, and the rest of the parts are hit or miss, salvaged Gew98-98k parts, new ordnance spare small bits, even some Modell98 parts from other rifles.

Reworked rifles done by the depots vary widely, both in work done and how they were marked, they are almost always identified by markings on the stock, but some have markings on the barrel. They generally keep the original serial and acceptance from the manufacturer. I wrote a small article on this topic in the November 2008 MRJ, for those that have it.

I classified the depot rifles into two categories, the builds like this one and the reworks, which are really original rifles that were repaired.

Pat said:

Are all depot rebuilt rifles marked with the Roman numeral facility designation?
Pat

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While Wehrkreise XXI was technically part of Germany during the war, incorporated within Germany, it was one of those border regions and the Generalgouvernment, (unincorporated Poland) was practically the wild west, essentially where factions competed for power and influence. The main players, not surprisingly, were the SS and Army, both having factories of one sort or another. Often using semi-private firms to operate them with slave labor (Jews etc..) and coerced labor (Poles and the various ethnic groups that made up Poland 1919-1939, - Poland, much like Czechoslovakia, had large numbers of oppressed peoples within their borders. Post 1919, the Entente allowed the Czechs and Poles to take in populations they had no right too, not allowing plebiscites, many ethnic groups were pressed into these new states, some of the most oppressive dealt with German populations in the Sudetenland, areas in Poland, along Belgium's border, and Alsace, where Belgium, France, the Czechs, Poland, and even Lithuania foolishly took ethnic Germans populations by force, without plebiscite...).

The labor in the Generalgouvernment was largely made up on Poles and Jews, and as bad as the Poles had it the Jews were often murdered in huge numbers just to prove a point, the SS had great influence in the Generalgouvernment and the protectorate (Böhmen und Mähren - the Czech areas). Raw labor was not as big a problem in these areas, but good labor, skilled and reliable was, and the best labor was the Jewish populations and they were available only at the whim of the SS, - and the SS usually seemed to feel that the winning of the war was secondary to murdering Jews.

Anyway, to answer the question, hard to say what made up the labor in the eastern depots, probably in the early period it was made up of ordnance soldiers and civilian contractors, but as the war progressed (and got worse) it was a known fact that the ordnance men were culled for effectives. All the German war industries were culled for men, increasingly so as the war went on, which is especially idiotic when you consider all the men in the German Army that were available, but tied up in support of the front. Milch, when his aviation industry was ruthlessly pillaged for men, had a study done and it was found the German Army was terribly inefficient in how they utilized the men they already had.

I have not read much on PoW labor in the war industries, it probably played a minor role later in the war, but generally the Germans followed the rules early in the war, in regards to western PoWs anyway. Many firms used foreign labor, women included, at first willing labor, or semi-willing labor, later forced labor, -which in part got Sauckel a date with the hangman. (justifiably too - you should read these "wartime" tough talking nazis in postwar interviews, possibly the most pathetic and weasely were kaltenbrunner, - the Sgt. Schultz of the SS...)

ClintJ said:

Thanks. I thought these depots were just taking piles of wounded K98k's and making good ones as they scavenged. Didnt they have some POW's doing that?

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SS,
Thanks for clearing that up for me! I now see the distinction you've made. I was reading Chapter VII (I believe) in the Handbook on German Forces, which went into the break down of military district and Hza's somewhat. Thanks for the detailed and informative answer.
Pat

SimsonSuhl said:

While Wehrkreise XXI was technically part of Germany during the war, incorporated within Germany, it was one of those border regions and the Generalgouvernment, (unincorporated Poland) was practically the wild west, essentially where factions competed for power and influence. The main players, not surprisingly, were the SS and Army, both having factories of one sort or another. Often using semi-private firms to operate them with slave labor (Jews etc..) and coerced labor (Poles and the various ethnic groups that made up Poland 1919-1939, - Poland, much like Czechoslovakia, had large numbers of oppressed peoples within their borders. Post 1919, the Entente allowed the Czechs and Poles to take in populations they had no right too, not allowing plebiscites, many ethnic groups were pressed into these new states, some of the most oppressive dealt with German populations in the Sudetenland, areas in Poland, along Belgium's border, and Alsace, where Belgium, France, the Czechs, Poland, and even Lithuania foolishly took ethnic Germans populations by force, without plebiscite...).

The labor in the Generalgouvernment was largely made up on Poles and Jews, and as bad as the Poles had it the Jews were often murdered in huge numbers just to prove a point, the SS had great influence in the Generalgouvernment and the protectorate (Böhmen und Mähren - the Czech areas). Raw labor was not as big a problem in these areas, but good labor, skilled and reliable was, and the best labor was the Jewish populations and they were available only at the whim of the SS, - and the SS usually seemed to feel that the winning of the war was secondary to murdering Jews.

Anyway, to answer the question, hard to say what made up the labor in the eastern depots, probably in the early period it was made up of ordnance soldiers and civilian contractors, but as the war progressed (and got worse) it was a known fact that the ordnance men were culled for effectives. All the German war industries were culled for men, increasingly so as the war went on, which is especially idiotic when you consider all the men in the German Army that were available, but tied up in support of the front. Milch, when his aviation industry was ruthlessly pillaged for men, had a study done and it was found the German Army was terribly inefficient in how they utilized the men they already had.

I have not read much on PoW labor in the war industries, it probably played a minor role later in the war, but generally the Germans followed the rules early in the war, in regards to western PoWs anyway. Many firms used foreign labor, women included, at first willing labor, or semi-willing labor, later forced labor, -which in part got Sauckel a date with the hangman. (justifiably too - you should read these "wartime" tough talking nazis in postwar interviews, possibly the most pathetic and weasely were kaltenbrunner, - the Sgt. Schultz of the SS...)

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I had read of a downed airman assembling rifles(I think at Posen) during his time as a POW. It was secondary to the nature of the article so I don't think it was an embellishment but you never know.

Great info guys! Thanks.

I do have a couple questions still. Since I'm not going to be able to find properly numbered bands to restore it, would unnumbered armourer's spares be the next best thing? Are there waffenamts on spare bands? I have an unnumbered lower band with a small "I" marking on it, no waffenamts.

I'm also curious as to why there is no firing proof on the rear of the bolt handle root. Did the depot builds have different standards for marking the firing proofs?

Generally three things are proofed (fireproof or "proof" only apply to 3 locations or markings, the waffenamts are not "proofs", they are acceptance), the receiver, barrel & bolt, or they should be. This is something that is nearly impossible to trend, whether every firm, and or depot, fireproofed bolts. Few show the siderails or right receiver, needless to say the bolt fp, so you'd be lucky to trend 5% on such topics.

I wouldn't worry over the lack of a fp on the bolt, it should have one but depots were not commercial firms supplying the Army, and they probably weren't too overzealous in the details. With "reworks", "builds" and "special rifles" (supermen rifles), it is the excess (too many) of markings than lack of markings that worry me. Humpers think they get $100 extra for every stamp they apply, usually thinking more is better...

I would just use the closest parts you can, any unserialed milled band will do, the Astrawerke (lower case "L") bands are probably the best bet, most numerous. In this time frame, when this rifle was probably made, the bands would probably have a waffenamt or makers code. Generally, parts meant for ordnance spares were considered finished products, they had to stand alone in the system, so they should have a waffenamt, and often a code or logo type (Geco, "EE" "ERMA" etc..)

I might add too that it is very possible the bands were salvaged bands, lined out & re-numbered to match.

SimsonSuhl said:

I would just use the closest parts you can, any unserialed milled band will do, the Astrawerke (lower case "L") bands are probably the best bet, most numerous. In this time frame, when this rifle was probably made, the bands would probably have a waffenamt or makers code. Generally, parts meant for ordnance spares were considered finished products, they had to stand alone in the system, so they should have a waffenamt, and often a code or logo type (Geco, "EE" "ERMA" etc..)

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Loewe said:

The Roman numerals are for the Wehrkreise. Germany was broken down into military districts, Imperial era by AK (Army Corps), post WWI, by ID (Infantry Divisions forming the basis for the districts), under Hitler's rearmament, it was based around the Corps again, and each Wehrkreise had a HQ, and usually HZa, HNZa, HMA, etc.. (ordnance depots) These depots stored and repaired equipment, most specialized, many did rifles, but it isn't certain if all did.

These with the Roman numerals are builds, not reworks, most are "new" ordnance spare receivers, but you do see the occasional salvaged Gew.98 receiver, or even the occasional early production 98k receiver recycled as a new rifle. These rifles are new built, usually using "new" ordnance spare barrels and stocks, often a new receiver, and the rest of the parts are hit or miss, salvaged Gew98-98k parts, new ordnance spare small bits, even some Modell98 parts from other rifles.

Reworked rifles done by the depots vary widely, both in work done and how they were marked, they are almost always identified by markings on the stock, but some have markings on the barrel. They generally keep the original serial and acceptance from the manufacturer. I wrote a small article on this topic in the November 2008 MRJ, for those that have it.

I classified the depot rifles into two categories, the builds like this one and the reworks, which are really original rifles that were repaired.

Click to expand...

Could you please provide a link to your November 2008 MRJ article. thanks a lot

Perhaps I can scan it or post it on my website, but it was written for the MRJ, not the internuut.. I would have to review it and see if it is still valid. Any article or post that is a decade or older is often full of mistakes or misinterpretation of facts, very little survives the test (onslaught) of time. (reading old articles and post often make you realize how little you truly know...)

bergess said:

Could you please provide a link to your November 2008 MRJ article. thanks a lot

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