Why Vid Censors XRFacts at Gunboards?

Vid the Gunboards moderator was allowed back at WAF after being banned for two years for bad conduct / drunken posting. He was allowed back at WAF, which censored all of the XRFacts posts, at the same time that he censored and deleted all of the XRFacts threads at Gunboards and deleted all negative reference to XRFacts at his site. He has been suspending me repeatedly for "not showing respect to a moderator" and "arguing with a moderator". I respect people who merit it.

Gunboards did not build a reputation based upon conduct like this, hiding the ball, and censorship for personal reasons and benefits to the detriment of the hobby. Is a person like this good for Gunboards and our hobby or serving his own interests?
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=570801&page=4

Gentlemen, this is about transparency and integrity, and truth. I found Vid's complete censorship and deletion of all threads, and "reasons" bizarre. My opinion was (and is, obviously) that this was done to help an XRFacts founder and fellow SS dealer, Hicks. Now it appears to me that the censorship and deletions were to suck up and get unbanned at WAF at the expense of the truth at Gunboards. That's not what Gunboards stands for. It certainly isn't what will ever happen here.

Interesting thoughts. And your point is?

gew8805 said:

Interesting thoughts. And your point is?

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His point is very clear. Vid, eager for a return to the WAF crowd's good graces, toes the line at GB eliminating most discussion of the XRF mess in which many prominent WAF members were involved. Granted, I think the XRF threads can get a little out of hand sometimes, but suspending members and deleting posts because they publically embarrass Kelly Hicks or whoever is simply uncalled for.

RyanE said:

................Granted, I think the XRF threads can get a little out of hand sometimes, but suspending members and deleting posts because they publically embarrass Kelly Hicks or whoever is simply uncalled for.

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"a little out of hand"? That's an understatement!

Who is Kelly Hicks and why does anybody care whether he is embarrassed?

The subject is an unhealthy obsession, you can see that in the "XRF" thread on this forum, no one comes out a winner and it gives the bad guys at XRF too much time. If it has to be discussed, lock it down after a few pages when everyone has had their say and let people read something informative of manageable size. In my opinion, the thread here is just as embarrassing to the good guys as it is for Sham Maui or whatever the guy is called - no one looks good, quite the opposite. The whole thing is a repetitive ball of mud and everyone looks the same after a few pages. The whole thing sort of blew up a few pages in.

gew8805 said:

"a little out of hand"? That's an understatement!

Who is Kelly Hicks and why does anybody care whether he is embarrassed?

The subject is an unhealthy obsession, you can see that in the "XRF" thread on this forum, no one comes out a winner and it gives the bad guys at XRF too much time. If it has to be discussed, lock it down after a few pages when everyone has had their say and let people read something informative of manageable size. In my opinion, the thread here is just as embarrassing to the good guys as it is for Sham Maui or whatever the guy is called - no one looks good, quite the opposite. The whole thing is a repetitive ball of mud and everyone looks the same after a few pages. The whole thing sort of blew up a few pages in.

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The bottom line is NO ONE should ever be attacked and / or banned for merely asking, "What's behind the curtain, Mr Wizard?"

gew8805 said:

"a little out of hand"? That's an understatement!

Who is Kelly Hicks and why does anybody care whether he is embarrassed?

The subject is an unhealthy obsession, you can see that in the "XRF" thread on this forum, no one comes out a winner and it gives the bad guys at XRF too much time. If it has to be discussed, lock it down after a few pages when everyone has had their say and let people read something informative of manageable size. In my opinion, the thread here is just as embarrassing to the good guys as it is for Sham Maui or whatever the guy is called - no one looks good, quite the opposite. The whole thing is a repetitive ball of mud and everyone looks the same after a few pages. The whole thing sort of blew up a few pages in.

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I reckon it would "look better" to do and say nothing or allow free speech to be suppressed? Such a trait is ethically lazy and apathetic, a sheeple type quality that is a problem for our society. At best you're searching out threads to bitch about, like an imbecile who seeks out ant piles to sit in so he can bitch and whine about ants. If you don't like threads don't read them. This thread isn't here for you, it's here for those who actually want to see a transparent discussion showing what's behind the curtain. You're complaining about a topic you obviously don't know much about, though you would know if you read the threads. If you did you'd recognize:

1) We are the only people who discussed XRF openly and completely; XRF could have had a profoundly bad result for the entire militaria collecting hobby.
2) Every other forum censored and deleted all threads about this (except the ones shilliing for XRFacts); why?
3) Doug B., a moderator and XRFacts insider who opposed our threads and methods initially, now has emphatically admitted he was wrong and we were right in aggressively staying on this issue and he advised us to continue because XRFacts is trying to resurrect itself. But you know more about this than Doug B.?
4) Without these threads you bitch and whine about we would have none of the responses, explanations, and insight into David May ("Maui") who formed XRFacts.
5) Without these threads you bitch and whine about we would not have the information from Doug B.

As for Vid, he's been banned from most militaria forums for misconduct and "drunken posting" and has never moderated except at Gunboards. Ironically he chose to pontificate like a loon on a "Conduct" thread started by a now banned "Super Moderator". That thread was to attack other members for his own purposes and "Vid" was made a mod by this person, his last skidmark legacy. Speaking of which, if I moderated like Vid I'd censor and delete your posts and then ban you. I would be on much firmer ground than Vid in so doing. But I don't, because I believe in the truth and my ability to support my position, and the competency and freedom of the forum members to make their own decisions. My advice to you is to not read posts which you don't understand and make you mad.

basile said:

The bottom line is NO ONE should ever be attacked and / or banned for merely asking, "What's behind the curtain, Mr Wizard?"

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Bingo. Thank you. And there is a reason why the threads were deleted at Gunboards by Vid and everywhere else. For that reason, we kept asking and will continue to ask. For those who don't like the discussion, who would rather believe the censored BS they are force fed, move along, no one is making you read these threads......

I don't know shite about helmets but have read most of these XRF threads. To me they tell a lot about forums, people etc., open honest debate is always good.

Beware when getting your lid tazed.

Some sheeple complaining about a thread that they can't help themselves to stop reading? I think that the thread title should be helpful if you know how to use it.

That's a common problem with sheeple, they just don't know what they want or need; they have to be told everything.

Another problem is that the sheeple don't know that they are sheeple. They think they're normal.

Hambone said:

I reckon it would "look better" to do and say nothing or allow free speech to be suppressed? Such a trait is ethically lazy and apathetic, a sheeple type quality that is a problem for our society. At best you're searching out threads to bitch about, like an imbecile who seeks out ant piles to sit in so he can bitch and whine about ants. If you don't like threads don't read them. This thread isn't here for you, it's here for those who actually want to see a transparent discussion showing what's behind the curtain. You're complaining about a topic you obviously don't know much about, though you would know if you read the threads. If you did you'd recognize:

1) We are the only people who discussed XRF openly and completely; XRF could have had a profoundly bad result for the entire militaria collecting hobby.
2) Every other forum censored and deleted all threads about this (except the ones shilliing for XRFacts); why?
3) Doug B., a moderator and XRFacts insider who opposed our threads and methods initially, now has emphatically admitted he was wrong and we were right in aggressively staying on this issue and he advised us to continue because XRFacts is trying to resurrect itself. But you know more about this than Doug B.?
4) Without these threads you bitch and whine about we would have none of the responses, explanations, and insight into David May ("Maui") who formed XRFacts.
5) Without these threads you bitch and whine about we would not have the information from Doug B.

As for Vid, he's been banned from most militaria forums for misconduct and "drunken posting" and has never moderated except at Gunboards. Ironically he chose to pontificate like a loon on a "Conduct" thread started by a now banned "Super Moderator". That thread was to attack other members for his own purposes and "Vid" was made a mod by this person, his last skidmark legacy. Speaking of which, if I moderated like Vid I'd censor and delete your posts and then ban you. I would be on much firmer ground than Vid in so doing. But I don't, because I believe in the truth and my ability to support my position, and the competency and freedom of the forum members to make their own decisions. My advice to you is to not read posts which you don't understand and make you mad.

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I have never had a thing to say about the entire XRFacts snowball, but Ham, that is the best postulated answer I have ever read as to WHY we should continue fights against such scams, cons and flawed science.

Tjg, the internet provides anonymity and hidden agendas for posters. What are the motivations? That's precisely why forum censorship is dishonest and destructive. At least here everyone knows they are getting all sides, not just the propaganda/sales pitch that a megalomaniacal moderator wants you to see. IMHO, anyone in this hobby who blindly accepted the claims of XRFacts and then favored censorship and suppression of open discussion of it is a dangerous imbecile at best, and at worst a toady shill, perhaps both. The only thing worse than no information is corrupt information. Censorship and banning corrupts information on an internet forum.

Thanks Vulch. Anyone is welcome to come here and assert their reasonably supported positions free of censorship. So why wouldn't they assert their positions beyond a forum where they censor and control information and the people posting it? Can't support their positions except when deleting opposing views? What does that say about them and the validity of their positions?

Very well, I'll give you the chance to increase your post count. I really shouldn't answer because my reason for posting is to, as I have said before, defend Gunboards. If you have a problem with a moderator on those forums, discuss that issue in privacy with that person. As I told you there when I gave you an infraction (something I rarely do btw) for arguing with a moderator. Don't do it. And now, sadly, I find myself pulled down to that level, by you, here. I do not like doing it, you deserve the respect (so to speak) that your position here holds and, frankly, it is a shame that I have to do it but the insulting remarks and name calling that you always do are so egregious that a PM to you would do no good and would not solve the problem.

The reason I came here to the K98k Forum was originally for the Imperial and Weimar era forums and they are exceptional. Paul is an excellent moderator on the Imperial forum and is a knowledgeable and well respected expert in the field. Can you say the same about yourself? I think not. Then I found the Militaria Forum and, since I am moderately interested in WW2 German militaria I looked at it to see what might be here. Guess what? There was the "XRFacts" thread. At that time I thought, "Don't go there" but I did, sort of like looking at a bad automobile accident - you can't take your eyes off of it. Then I saw the disparaging mention of Gunboards and had to post. Found out a few interesting things too. One "moderator" there who claims he never goes to his forum there (Gunboards). (?) Of course, that was soon cleared up in a "CYA" fashion but..... And then, this thread shows up. Well, never mind. I will leave this thread now and, while I may still check on it's progress, I will make every effort not to make further posts on it, it will go away soon enough. I simply need to remember Mark Twain's "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." That should keep me out of it, I can go back to being one of the "sheeple" I guess. And, as far as "anonymity", the people who need to know who I am do. No "hidden agendas", I am reachable both here and at Gunboards by PM any time.

gew8805 said:

Very well, I'll give you the chance to increase your post count. I really shouldn't answer because my reason for posting is to, as I have said before, defend Gunboards. If you have a problem with a moderator on those forums, discuss that issue in privacy with that person. As I told you there when I gave you an infraction (something I rarely do btw) for arguing with a moderator. Don't do it. And now, sadly, I find myself pulled down to that level, by you, here. I do not like doing it, you deserve the respect (so to speak) that your position here holds and, frankly, it is a shame that I have to do it but the insulting remarks and name calling that you always do are so egregious that a PM to you would do no good and would not solve the problem.

The reason I came here to the K98k Forum was originally for the Imperial and Weimar era forums and they are exceptional. Paul is an excellent moderator on the Imperial forum and is a knowledgeable and well respected expert in the field. Can you say the same about yourself? I think not. Then I found the Militaria Forum and, since I am moderately interested in WW2 German militaria I looked at it to see what might be here. Guess what? There was the "XRFacts" thread. At that time I thought, "Don't go there" but I did, sort of like looking at a bad automobile accident - you can't take your eyes off of it. Then I saw the disparaging mention of Gunboards and had to post. Found out a few interesting things too. One "moderator" there who claims he never goes to his forum there (Gunboards). (?) Of course, that was soon cleared up in a "CYA" fashion but..... And then, this thread shows up. Well, never mind. I will leave this thread now and, while I may still check on it's progress, I will make every effort not to make further posts on it, it will go away soon enough. I simply need to remember Mark Twain's "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." That should keep me out of it, I can go back to being one of the "sheeple" I guess. And, as far as "anonymity", the people who need to know who I am do. No "hidden agendas", I am reachable both here and at Gunboards by PM any time.

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Ah "TP" from Gunboards. Frankly, your problem and that of some of your fellow "moderators" is that you've become infatuated with your moderator controls, like a child who gets to be a hall monitor at an elementary school, but without adult oversight from a teacher. A few little people with big egos and an infraction button. That's a significant problem at Gunboards. In my years there as mod I don't think I ever "infracted" anyone, never censored, and never censored or banned. Then again I always thought the kids who wanted to be hall monitors were squirrels.

As I told you at GB your "infraction" and suspension for "showing disrespect to a moderator" is ridiculous and spotlights the above noted problems. Such angry squirrel antics makes me respect you less (though I had no reason to respect you or not anyway) and it makes me respect "Vid" less whom I did not respect.

TP, aren't you now "arguing with a moderator"? According to you then you should be suspended, correct? The irony, or rather the squirrel hypocrisy, is you are allowed to chatter here in a manner which would cause you to give "infractions" and suspend at Gunboards. You know this as does everyone else. And that is why my opinion of you as set forth here is appropriate.

I don't understand why some sheeple detest threads that expose scams such as XRFacts. You would think they would welcome these threads, because it helps their fellow sheeple to avoid getting burned. I'm sure there are more than a few sheeple that got burned by the XRFacts scam, but interestingly, they don't seem to want to hold the scammers accountable for trying to snatch their $250 per lid for a bogus XRFacts COA and their effort to make their "COA service" a tax on all lids. Therefore, you have a good definition of "sheeple." They happily herd themselves to the slaughter pen and resent anyone waving red flags.

It's a fact that some want to resurrect the XRFacts scam, but these types of threads are an impediment. Hopefully, some sheeple will now at least understand why XRFacts was a scam. It the sheeple had had a basic understanding of chemistry and physics, this scam wouldn't have been able to take off in the first place.

I want to state a few things, and then make some minor comments. Interpret as you wish.

1. TP, in my mind, has always run a proper, professional "ship" at his forum on Gunboards. I have never had an issue with Thom, and nor do I ever expect to. I have rarely seen Thom delete or censor/edit a post, unless it was GROSSLY inappropriate.

2. The XRFacts thread got mightily long-winded, personal and at times exceedingly obtuse. Occasionally there was heated exchange, but I never saw ANYTHING that warranted censor or edit UNLESS there was a hidden agenda behind it.

3. The XRFacts debate bored me crapless. Really. BUT, that is not my area (militaria), so I paid only cursory attention to it, and did not wade into it apart from the Scott Bugan bits and pieces (I make no claim or intention of hiding from that).

4. Having said the thread bored me, I also found it ENTIRELY appropriate and necessary to expose what to anyone with even a modicum of science knowledge would KNOW it to be snake oil sales. Hambone's analogy to telemarketing (or is that Teletubbies? Seemed to be t times ) is a correct one. IF, let's say, someone offered to zap your rifle and tell you who's DNA was on it and what the history was of the rifle for the past 80 years, then yes, I would be all in the fight to stop a scam such as that. That Hambone took up this battle is admirable. Perhaps Hambone can not let go of things - that's a lawyer for you - but if it warrants it, then why not?

The thread on Gunboards got just as long winded and verbose as here (correction - here moreso since it was never altered apart from Maui's avatar ) before Kristoff decided to censor/delete/edit the post. Why did he do that? A combination of things - hidden agenda, peer pressure, inability to handle confronting debate and so on. The list as to WHY it was done is as endless as the thread itself. The thread was discussed on occasion on the Moderator forum, and the general consensus was one of lock it up and throw it and the baggage away. In the process of all this, naturally Hambone is seen as the aggressor (which in the literal sense, he is) because he is seen as the sole perpetrator. That is a consequence of human nature. Yes, Hambone managed to piss-off a few/lot on the way because of this doggedness - and I for one sometimes thought to myself "Just drop it Craig" - but then the outcome speaks volumes. We need champions of our hobby to stop the rot setting in - look at the problems raised by Mitchells chicanery - endless utterly frustrating posts that could all end if Mitchells was dealt the same blow that XRFacts was. Look how many believed everything written and depicted in Law's BBOTW before it was pointed out the gross errors in the book, only NOW being remedied by BK and MS. If we don't oppose, we actively or subconsciously ACCEPT, and that is wherein lies the problem.

Personal issues are personal issues. They should be vented in PM or email, not air dirty laundry on an open forum. As I have mentioned, I have great respect for TP just as I have great respect for Hambone. Everyone has their differences, and those differences will rarely cleave one person from your respect UNLESS they happen to openly offend/involve oneself. Neither person has ever done that to me, and I respect both enough to suggest that neither ever would attempt to involve others to try to ante up their argument (though somewhat surprised at TP's reference to Farb in the never-forum/CYA bit - though, in reference to the thread on the GB Mod forum, I guess I can see the tangible link thanks to Kristoff's ranting, wild, rabid cover-his-own-a$$ statement to Mike).

As to infracting for insulting/arguing with a moderator, I did not see what was said, so will not comment.

Shite-happens. Get over it.

Vulch,
I'm sure TP / gew8805 does a great job managing people who kiss his a$$ and agree with him at his forum. However, in my book he's simply a petty little man who puts his own personal frustrations over propriety. The simple issues as to Gunboards are these:

1) Multiple and entire informative threads on XRFacts which people put alot of time into were simply deleted, posts deleted, while Vid had weird insult temper tantrums. Vid deleted all XRF reference at his site. Vid had been banned for years from WAF but was then let back on that site after his censor tantrums. WAF had censored and deleted all XRFacts threads too.

2) An XRFacts insider, who initially opposed us now admits that we were not only correct, but our aggressive posting methods keeping this alive were correct, and we should keep it up because XRFacts still poses a threat.

3) TP and Vid sent me PMs notifying me of my mounting infractions trying to shut me up about Vid's censorship. TP's PM was an infraction for "not respecting a moderator" (which is again, laughable) and I responded that being a "moderator" doesn't engender respect, which is earned.

Fact is, a few squirrels at GB, such as Vid, TP, and 03man (who I believe contributed to the implosion of the Jap forum at GB) are now taking shots at me because I can't respond. That speaks more to their character than mine. The issue is arbitrary censorship and moderator misconduct and abuse. TP doesn't even know what's going on with XRF and what it means or could mean for the hobby. He does know that I didn't "respect" him enough.

It's still pretty funny that he's over here "arguing with a moderator" and showing "disrespect to a moderator" which he deems a suspension offense at GB. TP, your gibberish is much more useless and asinine than mine. At least my posts had a point: XRFacts is bad and censorship is bad. What is your point TP? That I must respect your authoritye?

TP, while I'm thinking about it, and for the record, you're solidly lumped in with "Vid" in the squirrel "moderator" category. The reason I'm not is I don't put my petty personal feelings, ego, and tantrums above the truth, information, and the forum. It's not about your little moderator fiefdom. That's why I let you "show disrespect to a moderator" (I'm embarrassed for you for sending that TP) and "argue with a moderator", and why I don't censor and ban you (or anyone else) and am not afraid to let you respond openly.

We don't even have "infractions" here, much less one for being a douchebag, so you're safe

Hambone said:

Vulch,
I'm sure TP / gew8805 does a great job managing people who kiss his a$$ and agree with him at his forum. However, in my book he's simply a petty little man who puts his own personal frustrations over propriety. The simple issues as to Gunboards are these:

1) Multiple and entire informative threads on XRFacts which people put alot of time into were simply deleted, posts deleted, while Vid had weird insult temper tantrums. Vid deleted all XRF reference at his site. Vid had been banned for years from WAF but was then let back on that site after his censor tantrums. WAF had censored and deleted all XRFacts threads too.

2) An XRFacts insider, who initially opposed us now admits that we were not only correct, but our aggressive posting methods keeping this alive were correct, and we should keep it up because XRFacts still poses a threat.

3) TP and Vid sent me PMs notifying me of my mounting infractions trying to shut me up about Vid's censorship. TP's PM was an infraction for "not respecting a moderator" (which is again, laughable) and I responded that being a "moderator" doesn't engender respect, which is earned.

Fact is, a few little petty squirrels at GB, such as Vid, TP, and 03man (who I believe contributed to the implosion of the Jap forum at GB) are now taking shots at me because I can't respond. That speaks more to their character than mine. The issue is arbitrary censorship and misconduct as a moderator. The issue is a squirrel like TP making sure I got suspended (which was undone once by Vic) because of TP's petty personal reasons. TP doesn't even know what's going on with XRF and what it means or could mean for the hobby. He doesn't care because he's a squirrel. He does know that I didn't "respect" him enough.

At the end of the day, TP could care less about XRFacts and what it means and could mean. It's still pretty funny that he's over here "arguing with a moderator" and showing "disrespect to a moderator" which he deems a suspension offense at GB. TP, your gibberish is much more useless and asinine than mine. At least my posts had a point: XRFacts is bad and censorship is bad. What is your point TP? That I must respect your authoritye?

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Well Ham, I don't kiss anyone's a$$ but my wife's (and what a GORGEOUS a$$ it is! ), so don't lump me in there please I just call them as I see them. He's sleighted you, he's not sleighted me. Again, we are not all privvy to what was said and infracted between the 3 of you so we judge from what we know.

I do agree with you IN PRINCIPLE if the infractions were purely grudge retaliation. If there is more to it borne out in PM's/eMails, then the situation may alter IF and ONLY IF that information was made available. I respect you to know you would not post that information, as I expect Thom also will not.

As it stands Ham, just wait out the suspension period, take a deep breath, and have a look around. No need to start the battle again when the army may be already lost. Keep up the fight here - knowledge and discourse is safe here from any form of alteration, mediation, censorship or deletion, and additionally, as you note, we do not have a stupidly banal infraction system here.

Vulch said:

As it stands Ham, just wait out the suspension period, take a deep breath, and have a look around. No need to start the battle again when the army may be already lost. Keep up the fight here - knowledge and discourse is safe here from any form of alteration, mediation, censorship or deletion, and additionally, as you note, we do not have a stupidly banal infraction system here.

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Thom / "TP" / gew885 sent me a silly infraction for "disrespect to a moderator" or "arguing with a moderator". My response was as follows, and this is all there is. Does this clear it up for you? Do you think TP is correct? :

"Being a "moderator" doesn't make one right, respectable, nor does it create integrity. That's already been proven, and Vid continues to prove it. If doing this makes you feel better or like a person in charge of something, and you need that, to the detriment of what is right, then at least it was worth something for you. It hasn't changed my position any."


I stand behind everything I've said, particularly the foregoing. Vulch, thanks, that advice may have meant something to me 30 years ago. I'm not going to give credibility to squirrels by taking "deep breaths" nor worry about waiting for anything. Yet at the same time the humanitarian in me doesn't want to take away from their need to feel significant and empowered.

Alright. No problem.