Odd Leather Frog?

Hi Folks,

Looking for a little input on this little "bonus" frog that came with a 84/98 bayonet I just won.
Its not like anything I've seen before from any German rigs from either war, and clearly is not a perfect fit for this
The frog stud doesn't sit in any slot in the leather, but the scabbard does seem to nest nicely once inserted into the leather.
No markings seen from the poor photos provided with this listing.
Any thoughts on the origin of this frog?
Thought it might have some value on its own, even if not a 98k accessory.
(and there was the possibility that it WAS something unique and interesting, hence the "bonus" part)

Thanks!

It kind of looks like an altered French Bayonet frog

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...9ndUOO-K42QiQeaooGAAg&ved=0CGkQ9QEwBg&dur=365

I agree, it appears to be French and intended for Lebel bayonets. Impossible to say when the modifications were done, but if it were mine, I would keep it with the bayonet.

Thanks guys.
I'll do a thorough study when the pkg arrives.
It looks possible that modifications were made somewhere along the line, where the original strap was removed as witnessed by the stitch holes in the leather. That type of strap config looks similar to a Swiss bayo I have where the strap feeds through a slot in the scabbard then buckles down.
Where can I learn more about the French lebel model you mention? Not much popping up in my searches that looks similar.

What is the date and who was the maker of the 84/98 bayonet. While the frog has been extensively modified and will no longer accept the French bayonet that it was originally intended for, Germany did modify French and other frogs during the First World War. Whether this is one, hard to say without detailed photographs.

gew8805 said:

What is the date and who was the maker of the 84/98 bayonet. While the frog has been extensively modified and will no longer accept the French bayonet that it was originally intended for, Germany did modify French and other frogs during the First World War. Whether this is one, hard to say without detailed photographs.

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I don't have the date of the bayo yet - the pictures in the listing don't show the date (just 42ASW on the scabbard - which is not expected to be matching).
It does show the maker as Herder (looks like "Rich. A. Herder").
The leather in these additional photos does show modifications of both the removed strap stitch holes, as well as the increased lower cut-out opening for the scabbard.
Does this provide any further clues?
The seller is showing as "away", so I can't ask questions, and its shipment is pending his return.
I really low-balled the bid, not expecting to win it, otherwise I would have required more info before making a purchase.

No, the bayonet is a Type III so it is WW2, I was wondering if it might be a WWI bayonet and the modified frog could possibly date to the 1914 - 1918 War. You have an interesting purchase, I hope you are as happy about it as I would be.

Here's a French Bayo and Frog for comparison. Don't have any photos of the back side of the frog, I'll see if I can get some posted.

Yes, gergnotwen that is a French M1892 bayonet in the frog that was specific to the Berthier carbine. You have a nice example and the frogs of that type are hard to find. The frog shown by BergerBoy is the standard French frog used on the Lebel M1886 bayonet for the Lebel and Berthier rifles.

gew8805 said:

Yes, gergnotwen that is a French M1892 bayonet in the frog that was specific to the Berthier carbine. You have a nice example and the frogs of that type are hard to find. The frog shown by BergerBoy is the standard French frog used on the Lebel M1886 bayonet for the Lebel and Berthier rifles.

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Thanks for the heads up, I knew it was French but had no idea what it actually mounted on. I got it with a bring back certificate and a rifle from a WW2 vet at auction, so I know he picked it up at one of the forward bases in France. Did the French still use these as a service bayonet in WW2? I not up on French weaponry from that period

Thanks Guys.

I'll provide more info on the subject frog when it arrives.
The seller finally returned from "away" status and it shows as Shipped as of today.
What things should I be looking for when it arrives? Markings? Certain stitching cues, etc?
Would be nice if this was a bonus-buy item that ended up being more valuable than the main bayonet purchase.
From the photos, the leather looks too new to be truly a period piece (very thick and black), and could be a repro, but can't be sure till it arrvies.

I think this was probably what your bayonet frog started out as. Supposed to be a French M1874 Gras Rifle Bayonet Frog...

gergnotwen said:

Thanks for the heads up, I knew it was French but had no idea what it actually mounted on. I got it with a bring back certificate and a rifle from a WW2 vet at auction, so I know he picked it up at one of the forward bases in France. Did the French still use these as a service bayonet in WW2? I not up on French weaponry from that period

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Yes, they were used into at least the 1950s, possibly later.

BergerBoy said:

Thanks Guys.

I'll provide more info on the subject frog when it arrives.
The seller finally returned from "away" status and it shows as Shipped as of today.
What things should I be looking for when it arrives? Markings? Certain stitching cues, etc?
Would be nice if this was a bonus-buy item that ended up being more valuable than the main bayonet purchase.
From the photos, the leather looks too new to be truly a period piece (very thick and black), and could be a repro, but can't be sure till it arrvies.

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The French frogs of this form were used from the the 1870s until the post WW2 era. I seriously doubt that yours will prove to be a reproduction, it looks to be original dating from WW1 to 1940 and was for the 1886 Lebel bayonet. To collectors of the German Sg84/98 bayonet it will not add great value but it adds interest nonetheless, especially if it has proven provenance. I would keep them together.

Hey Fellas.
The Bayo and "mystery frog" finally arrived yesterday.
Here are some pix I've taken.
The Bayo is a WW2 type 3, Rich. A. Herder, dated 40 on the blade back edge. Bakelite handles, knocked-around pommel, and mismatched scabbard. Not bad, but nothing special (I don't think).

Except for the frog, which really does look like it was modified to fit this scabbard.
The strap was removed (as witnessed by the exposed stitch holes), and the lower opening for the scabbard was cut wider to accommodate what amounts to a perfect fit to this scabbard (see photo).
Also appears to be a "T Y" scraped into the back of the leather - possibly the wearer's initials?

Based on your input (thanks) and a little more poking around on the web, it does appear to be a French Lebel 1886 bayo/sword frog (I attached another photo of a different one I found in my research).

So - that being said, what can be speculated about this combo? Any chance it could really be a period-modification, done by the German soldier during WW2? How would he have come across this WW1 French frog? Why would he have gone to the trouble to customize it to his bayonet? More secure? More comfortable? Wearing it as a war prize?
Is there any way to date this frog? (I've never said that before, really!)
No official markings are to be found.

Seems like I've got something to be happy about, based on your input so far, just not sure what!

This is the best part of this hobby IMO - trying to re-create the history behind the artifacts!!

BergerBoy said:

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So - that being said, what can be speculated about this combo? Any chance it could really be a period-modification, done by the German soldier during WW2?

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Not a bad purchase. The frog is certainly a period modification but certainly not by an individual German soldier, it was more than likely done by the unit's harnessmaker and done only out of serious need for a frog. Possibly done near the end of the war during a shortage of standard equipment?

BergerBoy said:

How would he have come across this WW1 French frog? Why would he have gone to the trouble to customize it to his bayonet? More secure? More comfortable? Wearing it as a war prize?
Is there any way to date this frog? (I've never said that before, really!)
No official markings are to be found.

Click to expand...

The frog could have been produced during WW1 but it just as likely was made after WW1 and possibly as late as the early days of the Second World War, the french continued using the Berthier rifle as well as the Lebel into the 1950s. I do not think it was a war prize, wearing enemy equipment without necessity was not considered good form and could get you killed under the right circumstances - French troops or members of the Underground were not noted for their kindness to German prisoners, especially those wearing captured equipment.

BergerBoy said:

Seems like I've got something to be happy about, based on your input so far, just not sure what!

This is the best part of this hobby IMO - trying to re-create the history behind the artifacts!!

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It's mostly guess work but, agreed.