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Thread: G. Appel Jagd Cleaning Kits

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    Moderator Slash's Avatar
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    Default G. Appel Jagd Cleaning Kits

    I'm confident that almost all collectors here are somewhat familiar with the Reinigungsgerät 34 cleaning kit and many are also aware of the larger in size but similar in construction cleaning kit for the Panzerbuchse (Pz. B.) antitank rifles. There exists however, another variation based on the rg34 which is seldom encountered and about which little has been recorded. The Jagd marked cleaning kits are a rare variation which are slightly larger in size than the standard rg34 and contain at least in part unique components.

    Have come across only a very few of these while conducting research for the rg34 reference book that I am currently writing. All of the examples observed and recorded have been made by Gustav Appel and are marked on the main lid with Jagd and G Appel. The presence of the term Jagd (hunting) suggests commercial use, perhaps designed for the game hunter or target shooter. The Jagd Behälter (can) is exactly the same height and thickness as a standard rg34 but they are approximately 20mm wider. The construction details of the can are exactly the same as Appel's typical rg34. The retention clips are brass and the entire kits is overpainted in the manner of their WWII period painted cans. The paint however is black and has the textured or crinkle type appearance as often encountered on field glasses and cameras. Research is ongoing and at this point it is difficult to determine exactly what original components would have been included in the Jagd Kits. This is due to the small sample of kits observed as well as concerns regarding the "mixing" of components from can to can. Currently, I am only comfortable asserting that the kits originally contained a steel oiler, pull through chain, and four brushes. The brushes consist of rifle (cleaning & oiling) and shotgun (cleaning & oiling). The oilers observed have been early style polished steel some stamped Appel. Pull through chains have been observed in both the traditional 7.92mm size or in the smaller 5.56mm variation. Again, the chains have been of early quality and some are marked Appel. A few of the Jagd kits have been observed with the Hülsenkopftwischer (receiver tool) some marked GUSTAV APPEL. Same with the blued "butterfly toggle" jointed pull through device, as well as a small angled double ended screwdriver tool. Because of the extremely small number of examples documented it would be premature to speculate further regarding the original component pieces.

    The combination of rifle and shotgun size brushes certainly fits well with the commercial hunting hypothesis. Perhaps even a cleaning kit for a drilling. But could these kits also have had a military application? The Luftwaffe certainly employed shotguns; the cased Survival Drilling as well as other models. The Survival Drilling's cleaning equipment is different however and carried in the weapon case. Or was this a cleaning kit for civil sporting groups such as the National Hunting and/or Shooting Associations? And from what time period do these Jagd Kits date? Some have rather quickly stated that they are post WWII but I am far from convinced that is the case. Research continues and additional information regarding these rare and enigmatic cleaning kits is included in the book project which remains in progress.

    Several pictures are attached below:

    - Examples of two Jagd Cleaning Kits from my collection

    - Contents of the kit shown at right in the first pic. Steel oiler which is stamped with the G. Appel trademark (apple G logo) on the base. Receiver tool stamped GUSTAV APPEL. Blued "butterfly toggle" jointed pull through device. Small blued double ended flat tip screwdriver key tool. Both shotgun brushes and rifle oiling brush. The patch compartment contains two bundles of grey cleaning threads (not shown)

    - Contents of the kit which is shown at left in the first pic. Early pattern polished steel oiler. Aluminum beaded reinigungskette (cleaning chain) in 5.56mm caliber with ball & socket toggle and weighted end segment. Both types of shotgun brushes

    - Main compartment lids of both Jagd Kits showing the impressed markings

    - Typical Reinigungsgerät 34 by G. Appel is shown on the right for comparison with the Jagd Cleaning Kit (left). Note the construction similarities and that the Jagd Kit is only marginally larger in size

    - A second size comparison with the larger Jagd Kit shown beneath the smaller standard sized rg34 by G. Appel


    If anyone has further information or examples of Jagd Cleaning Kits or for that matter any other unusual rg34 items please PM me here as I am still researching and collecting data for the reference book. Many thanks in advance and any/all thoughts or comments welcome ......
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  2. #2
    Junior Member vincenzo3006's Avatar
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    Default rg-34

    Quote Originally Posted by Slash View Post
    I'm confident that almost all collectors here are somewhat familiar with the Reinigungsgerät 34 cleaning kit and many are also aware of the larger in size but similar in construction cleaning kit for the Panzerbuchse (Pz. B.) antitank rifles. There exists however, another variation based on the rg34 which is seldom encountered and about which little has been recorded. The Jagd marked cleaning kits are a rare variation which are slightly larger in size than the standard rg34 and contain at least in part unique components.

    Have come across only a very few of these while conducting research for the rg34 reference book that I am currently writing. All of the examples observed and recorded have been made by Gustav Appel and are marked on the main lid with Jagd and G Appel. The presence of the term Jagd (hunting) suggests commercial use, perhaps designed for the game hunter or target shooter. The Jagd Behälter (can) is exactly the same height and thickness as a standard rg34 but they are approximately 20mm wider. The construction details of the can are exactly the same as Appel's typical rg34. The retention clips are brass and the entire kits is overpainted in the manner of their WWII period painted cans. The paint however is black and has the textured or crinkle type appearance as often encountered on field glasses and cameras. Research is ongoing and at this point it is difficult to determine exactly what original components would have been included in the Jagd Kits. This is due to the small sample of kits observed as well as concerns regarding the "mixing" of components from can to can. Currently, I am only comfortable asserting that the kits originally contained a steel oiler, pull through chain, and four brushes. The brushes consist of rifle (cleaning & oiling) and shotgun (cleaning & oiling). The oilers observed have been early style polished steel some stamped Appel. Pull through chains have been observed in both the traditional 7.92mm size or in the smaller 5.56mm variation. Again, the chains have been of early quality and some are marked Appel. A few of the Jagd kits have been observed with the Hülsenkopftwischer (receiver tool) some marked GUSTAV APPEL. Same with the blued "butterfly toggle" jointed pull through device, as well as a small angled double ended screwdriver tool. Because of the extremely small number of examples documented it would be premature to speculate further regarding the original component pieces.

    The combination of rifle and shotgun size brushes certainly fits well with the commercial hunting hypothesis. Perhaps even a cleaning kit for a drilling. But could these kits also have had a military application? The Luftwaffe certainly employed shotguns; the cased Survival Drilling as well as other models. The Survival Drilling's cleaning equipment is different however and carried in the weapon case. Or was this a cleaning kit for civil sporting groups such as the National Hunting and/or Shooting Associations? And from what time period do these Jagd Kits date? Some have rather quickly stated that they are post WWII but I am far from convinced that is the case. Research continues and additional information regarding these rare and enigmatic cleaning kits is included in the book project which remains in progress.

    Several pictures are attached below:

    - Examples of two Jagd Cleaning Kits from my collection

    - Contents of the kit shown at right in the first pic. Steel oiler which is stamped with the G. Appel trademark (apple G logo) on the base. Receiver tool stamped GUSTAV APPEL. Blued "butterfly toggle" jointed pull through device. Small blued double ended flat tip screwdriver key tool. Both shotgun brushes and rifle oiling brush. The patch compartment contains two bundles of grey cleaning threads (not shown)

    - Contents of the kit which is shown at left in the first pic. Early pattern polished steel oiler. Aluminum beaded reinigungskette (cleaning chain) in 5.56mm caliber with ball & socket toggle and weighted end segment. Both types of shotgun brushes

    - Main compartment lids of both Jagd Kits showing the impressed markings

    - Typical Reinigungsgerät 34 by G. Appel is shown on the right for comparison with the Jagd Cleaning Kit (left). Note the construction similarities and that the Jagd Kit is only marginally larger in size

    - A second size comparison with the larger Jagd Kit shown beneath the smaller standard sized rg34 by G. Appel


    If anyone has further information or examples of Jagd Cleaning Kits or for that matter any other unusual rg34 items please PM me here as I am still researching and collecting data for the reference book. Many thanks in advance and any/all thoughts or comments welcome ......
    Dear Slash, please what can you tell me about an RG34 in bakelite? In your opinion is a post war (DDR) or what? Many thanks for you reply. Regards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vincenzo3006 View Post
    Dear Slash, please what can you tell me about an RG34 in bakelite? In your opinion is a post war (DDR) or what? Many thanks for you reply. Regards.

    Hello Vincenzo,

    The composite construction (bakelite, phenolic, or plastic) rg34 kits have shown up on and off for a number of years and have usually been advertised as "late war, experimental, or last ditch." I have seen these bring crazy money, including one close to $200 on ebay. A few years ago I picked one up on the cheap as a reference for the book project. I do not feel these are WWII vintage, pre1945, or however else you would like to put it. There is no evidence to suggest that a composite construction rg34 can was produced by any maker prior to the end of the war. Many are marked Lieferer Nr. 1509 translates to Supplier No. 1509 or if you break it down to the root of Liefer: Deliver. Not much help, but note that it does not confrom to any typical markings of late war German militaria. Also this maker's information is debossed or raised which I find unusual. The composite material is a thin medium brown that does not contain any wood or fiber material (usually found in late war bakelite products). There are no war time three letter manufacture or MPD codes on the can. The material is very similar (if not the same) to that used for the later Kalashnikov cleaning kit cans.

    If one examines the components of these kits they are also of post war manufacture. These kits often contain the "figure eight" or "dog chain" type pull through. Some have stated that these chains are original but I am convinced they are post 1945 manufacture. The chain is made of very light wire material that is twisted nearly identical to the type of chain commonly sold for dog leads. I have observed these "dog chain" pull throughs in blued finish and in the white. This type of chain is very different than the original late war twisted wire chain encountered in some 1944 and 45 dated kits. Original twisted wire chains have a thin somewhat lengthy twisted area and small loops to each end; these post war chains have a thicker short twisted area with much larger rounded bulbous loops. The wire stock of the original chains is also of a heavier gauge than this version. Kits may also be encoutered with a nylon or other fiber pull through.

    The brushes and the tool are also of post war manufacture as are the composite oil bottles that are usualy found in these kits. The oil bottles will be of the Black/Brown/Black composite construction (plastic) that exhibit harsh sharp edges. The oilers will not have internal three letter manufacture or MPD codes. They will also have a rubber gasket instead of the typical leather at the bottom opening.

    In closing, all of the bakelite, phenolic, or plastic rg34 that I have examined are of post 1945 manufacture. As for origin, I strongly feel these are of East German manufacture/issue. Hope this helps.

    My thoughts only ......

  4. #4
    No War Eagles For You! mrfarb's Avatar
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    I've never even heard of this kit!
    Order the new K98k book at www.thirdpartypress.com
    Don't forget to visit www.latewar.com for info on late war 98k's.

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    Junior Member vincenzo3006's Avatar
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    Default G. Appel Jagd Cleaning Kits.

    [QUOTE=Slash;54511]Hello Vincenzo,

    The composite construction (bakelite, phenolic, or plastic) rg34 kits have shown up on and off for a number of years and have usually been advertised as "late war, experimental, or last ditch." I have seen these bring crazy money, including one close to $200 on ebay. A few years ago I picked one up on the cheap as a reference for the book project. I do not feel these are WWII vintage, pre1945, or however else you would like to put it. There is no evidence to suggest that a composite construction rg34 can was produced by any maker prior to the end of the war. Many are marked Lieferer Nr. 1509 translates to Supplier No. 1509 or if you break it down to the root of Liefer: Deliver. Not much help, but note that it does not confrom to any typical markings of late war German militaria. Also this maker's information is debossed or raised which I find unusual. The composite material is a thin medium brown that does not contain any wood or fiber material (usually found in late war bakelite products). There are no war time three letter manufacture or MPD codes on the can. The material is very similar (if not the same) to that used for the later Kalashnikov cleaning kit cans.

    If one examines the components of these kits they are also of post war manufacture. These kits often contain the "figure eight" or "dog chain" type pull through. Some have stated that these chains are original but I am convinced they are post 1945 manufacture. The chain is made of very light wire material that is twisted nearly identical to the type of chain commonly sold for dog leads. I have observed these "dog chain" pull throughs in blued finish and in the white. This type of chain is very different than the original late war twisted wire chain encountered in some 1944 and 45 dated kits. Original twisted wire chains have a thin somewhat lengthy twisted area and small loops to each end; these post war chains have a thicker short twisted area with much larger rounded bulbous loops. The wire stock of the original chains is also of a heavier gauge than this version. Kits may also be encoutered with a nylon or other fiber pull through.

    The brushes and the tool are also of post war manufacture as are the composite oil bottles that are usualy found in these kits. The oil bottles will be of the Black/Brown/Black composite construction (plastic) that exhibit harsh sharp edges. The oilers will not have internal three letter manufacture or MPD codes. They will also have a rubber gasket instead of the typical leather at the bottom opening.

    In closing, all of the bakelite, phenolic, or plastic rg34 that I have examined are of post 1945 manufacture. As for origin, I strongly feel these are of East German manufacture/issue. Hope this helps.

    My thoughts only ......

    Many thanks for your circumstantial and very interesting explanation. I will not hesitate to contact you again, if it is not a trouble for you. Thanks again. Best regards. Vincenzo

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    Moderator Slash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vincenzo3006 View Post
    Many thanks for your circumstantial and very interesting explanation. I will not hesitate to contact you again, if it is not a trouble for you. Thanks again. Best regards. Vincenzo

    You are most welcome. My pleasure, always happy to help! Lance O. Adams ......

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    Senior Member Sarge's Avatar
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    Question

    I have a question for you. I recently picked up an RG 34 that seems to be a standard KH 1935 marked can, but repainted dark blue/grey. It has G 2868 stamped on one end and 1 over // - with a line between, on the other end by the W ??100 proof. I'm wondering what these marking might mean.
    I also have another that the only markings are a larger than normal eagle, but you can't see what should be under it, like it was stamped crooked.
    Sarge
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    Moderator Slash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    I have a question for you. I recently picked up an RG 34 that seems to be a standard KH 1935 marked can, but repainted dark blue/grey. It has G 2868 stamped on one end and 1 over // - with a line between, on the other end by the W ??100 proof. I'm wondering what these marking might mean.
    I also have another that the only markings are a larger than normal eagle, but you can't see what should be under it, like it was stamped crooked.
    Sarge
    Sarge,

    The G 2868 is a rifle number. G for Gewehr and the serial number of the rifle. The rg34 was number matched to that rifle when issued. I am not sure what the other number is. It may be a unit number. Pictures would help. Same with the larger eagle that you mention on the other can. The proof for KH 1935 should be an early down wing eagle WaA109. You might want to check to see if that is fact the number instead of 100. Some of these can be hard to make out.

    Regarding the rifle number. These are encountered with some frequency on early (usually pre-war) kits. They can be found with G, K (karabiner), or P (pistole). The P marked examples are much scarcer than the G and K pieces. Occasionally the serial number will include the letter block but usually that is not the case. These numbers are usually found stamped to the lids but occasionally they will be found to the body of the can.

    Hope this helps ......

  9. #9
    Junior Member vincenzo3006's Avatar
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    Default Rg-34.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slash View Post
    Sarge,

    The G 2868 is a rifle number. G for Gewehr and the serial number of the rifle. The rg34 was number matched to that rifle when issued. I am not sure what the other number is. It may be a unit number. Pictures would help. Same with the larger eagle that you mention on the other can. The proof for KH 1935 should be an early down wing eagle WaA109. You might want to check to see if that is fact the number instead of 100. Some of these can be hard to make out.

    Regarding the rifle number. These are encountered with some frequency on early (usually pre-war) kits. They can be found with G, K (karabiner), or P (pistole). The P marked examples are much scarcer than the G and K pieces. Occasionally the serial number will include the letter block but usually that is not the case. These numbers are usually found stamped to the lids but occasionally they will be found to the body of the can.

    Hope this helps ......
    Dear Lance, again two questions about our "Reinigungsgerät 34":
    - Which factory coincide with code fdt?
    - Which factory coincide with code kcy?
    I could not find any information about these codes. I do appreciate your help.
    Best regards.
    Vincenzo

  10. #10
    Moderator Slash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vincenzo3006 View Post
    Dear Lance, again two questions about our "Reinigungsgerät 34":
    - Which factory coincide with code fdt?
    - Which factory coincide with code kcy?
    I could not find any information about these codes. I do appreciate your help.
    Best regards, Vincenzo

    Vincenzo,

    ftd is the maker code for Peter Schlesinger, Metallwarenfabrik, Offenbach a./M. Schlesinger was a primary contractor that produced complete rg34 and all components.

    kcy is the maker code for Vereinigte Kettenfabriken GmbH, Stolberg/Rheinland. This is a subcontractor that manufactured rg34 cleaning chains (Reinigungskette) or "pull-throughs."

    Hope this helps ......

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