"What you can get for 960 bucks" : Steyr 1941 (PLEASE HELP WITH ODDITIES)

This is the Steyr 1941 picked up on Bornholm recently:
Read the full story here: http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?8667-!!!What-you-can-get-for-960-bucks-some-history!!!-)

BNZ 41, All matching, Cleaning rod missing and bore is not too good due to lack of cleaning and extensive use over the years with corrosive ammo :-( .

This one has some oddities though! PLEASE HELP to ID:

The serial number is m1809N, the m is lower case and the N is upper case (see pictures). I have never seen this before, execpt on a 660 Radom 1939 G29/40 from the same place as I bought this rifle. (Picture of Radom included though part of serial number covered as it is not mine). What are these serial numbers, I haven't seen any like them. please help?

Proofmarks look like weimar eagles, but have later had a cirle/ring stamped underneath as to make it like a nazi eagle... what is this? I know this was done durring the war, as I know they have only had one owner since who didn't care for the history, but why?

The rest of the rifle (except receiver and barrel) only has the two last digits of the serial number stamped in them (09) including bolt. I have seen this on the Radom (72) and a spare bolt inserted in the BNZ 43 (25) I accuired in the same lot as this BNZ 41. All WaA are correct, though some are 77 Radom spares. The rest are 623. Both the Radom and this one have 2 eagles with swastika un the bottom of the stock, and this one has the code C also. The Radom has the code CO + another letter i couldn't read...

Please help to ID this rifle as it has several markings I haven't seen before...

Is there any way you can post larger photos of this rifle? This is a rare version of some kind of depot built rifle, presumably for the Navy. MORE PHOTOS!!!! BIGGER!!!

Here are some more detailed and (hopefully) larger Pictures... These are my first posts... sorry if sometimes sizes are wrong...

Ask for more Photos if you want to see something else on the rifle thank you

Picture 6 also shows a small sun-like star marked on the barrel... anybody know what this is?

The last Picture has a buch of different markings on the bolt handle... they are hard to see even when the rifle is in your hands... sorry ...

"N" on the disc on the stock is not stylized as I have seen them on Marine/navy rifles... But similar to the one in the serial number (which also match here).

The star marking is usually stamped on parts that are out of spec and needing repair before final acceptance. As far as I know, this is the only matching one of these around, and very valuable. Nobody knows exactly what these are, but having one complete is a nice step in determining more about them.

do you think the Eagle/O firing proofs are specific Ost see depot proof marks?? Has anyone seen these maybe on Navy sidearms ??

I don't think the odd firing proof is meant to suggest Eagle O, but the numbering convention surely points to a depot build, that is using the last 2 digits on all of the parts. The strangest aspect is the use of all Steyr parts on these things. It would seem a normal depot would have a mix of armorers parts, that is unless the Navy had some deal worked out with Steyr in the early years, or this specific depot did. There have been collectors that have studied these in the past and came up with plausible theories, that's how I knew they were attributed to the Navy.

Hello Again, and thank you for the great information

As you can see on the last Picture of the first post in the thread, we know of a 660 Radom g29/40 which also have this strange number system with mXXXXN... proofmarks seems polish though, and the bolt isn't matching with 4 digit number.

Maybe I can by this one... would it be worth while? Is this valuable too?

Thank u

Yes, valuable to collectors in the US, not sure what the value to Denmark is.

I forgot to mention one thing... other 41 BNZ's I have seen has an eagle above the BNZ on the reciever... On this it looks like it was removed by cutting of some materiel (see Pictures). Anybody knows why this might have been done? Also, I don't think that Danes collect rifles the same way as people in the US... In Denmark people collect different weapon types (k98,m1 garand,Lee Enfield) not makers/years/rareties and so on... I do though, and it would be nice to not what this one could be worth in the US... just an estimate...

Thank you all! GREAT FORUM!!!

There was no stamp there. That waffenampt you speak of started to appear in 1942 as an abbreviated inspection process. It replaced several on the right forward side of the receiver placed there during successive inspections during manufacture. The skim cut you see is on all K98k, maybe an indicating surface for successive operations?

Cool depot build! I know I have seen that E/O stamp somewhere else and I am certain it had a naval connection.

I am guessing the letter prefix m is for Marine and the suffix N for Nordsee. I'd bet assembly was done in Kiel.

Jsne said:

Hello Again, and thank you for the great information

As you can see on the last Picture of the first post in the thread, we know of a 660 Radom g29/40 which also have this strange number system with mXXXXN... proofmarks seems polish though, and the bolt isn't matching with 4 digit number.

Maybe I can by this one... would it be worth while? Is this valuable too?

Thank u

Click to expand...

I have seen a few 29/40's with 39 dated receivers assembled in 41 with navy E/M stocks so apparenty steyr did have a large naval contract in 41.. maybe part of it was repair parts and enough to assemble complete rifles. I saw two bnz41 navy 98's at the last sos. Both j blocks if I remember correctly.

First time i've ever seen one of these, I'm far from having seen it all, but it certainly isnt everyday you see a k98 variation you've never seen before. Thats what keeps me coming back. Thanks for sharing

This is a very good find; the rifle is correct and nearly identical to JimP m1909N, also a bnz/41, which was the center piece of the article I wrote on this variation in October 2007. Yours is especially important due to the fact it has a matching stock, no other rifle has a matching stock, though some have some matching components, JimP rifle was mostly matching metal, but no stock.

I would like to see a better picture of your rifles right receiver, a clear picture of the bolt bottom flat (kind of blurry), any markings on the stock (wrist, lower buttstock, buttplate, any marking to identify component source, I would like to know the maker of the stock, typically SDP made stocks, though "dot" & Menzel stocks are common within the G.29/40 program), your rear sight markings and trigger guard assembly, (it should have "09" serial and one e/77). Generally these rifles should be all Radom components (e/77 acceptance) except the barrel and rear sight components, which are usually Steyr (e/623 components). There is one recycled 98k receiver known, MattG had an S147/38 recycled with this pattern of assembly, his is the only one so far encountered, the rest are all Radom receivers, either G.29/40 or e/77 98k accepted receivers like this one.

Regarding the connection to the KM (navy), I do not think there is any doubt that these are KM rifles, built up by navy armorers, they existed in the Imperial and interwar eras, plenty examples of their work have been documented, usually they are more abbreviated in nature than their land cousins in the army, often their work has a sloppier look to it, more salvaging, more variety in components, probably due to their limited funding and facilities (interwar size of the RM was 15k). I think these rifles were built in 1941, perhaps a little later, but doubtful very late as nothing suggests they are later than early 1942 so far. As someone said the top final wouldn't apply with these anyway, they weren't built by SDP and depots didn't apply finals the same way as manufacturers did, - the top final on SDP began in 1941, not 1942, or at least rifles "dated" 1941 begin in the "i" block with this feature, - SDP had problems getting rifles processed through production, comparing company production totals of SDP with known production shows that many rifles were held back, probably failing one aspect or another, many only accepted when standards were loosened in late 1941, early 1942. That is when you see an large increase of rifles delivered, yet no corresponding increase of rifles dated 1942. This trend is also supported by comparisons in 1940, where ranges are much higher, yet SDP deliveries are rather meager by comparison. A passage from my article on SDP, which isn't published yet- I know we are very late, but I am still trying to reconcile the problems of too much text, at one time the article was 23 pages long, I have to get it to 10, and I hate cutting text...:

"What set 1941 apart from prior years though is the decline in quality and the wide variation in how rifles are marked, it shows that the assembly operations had problems getting rifles to pass testing and inspection. Case in point is the variation in stock acceptance and branch of service markings which are the last steps in inspection. What was a confusing pattern became signs that the rifles were not passing inspection in a linear fashion, that some of the rifles, a significant number probably, were being held back and the variation in the rifles markings were because the rifles were not making it to the final stages as they were assembled. Further take note that SDP delivered 232,425 rifles in 1941, yet the known range of rifles marked bnz/41 is only known up through the mid-k block, or 115,000 rifles. Many rifles marked 1940, including the G.29/40, were actually delivered in 1941. ( footnote- Even adding the 38,000 G.29/40 known delivered by SDP in 1941, the total still is only 153.000 rifles, which leaves a large number of 660/1940 Kar.98k not passing inspection until 1941, - nearly 80,000 rifles.)"

Also attached is a page from Jan Still's P.08 book showing the E/O on an interwar navy "Luger". The fact these are usually rifles made of Radom components makes some sense, most G.29/40's were delivered to the KM, they were the intended service for their manufacture (as per Jon Speed's documents Bruce posted on this forum), some early rifles were sent to the army to make up shortfalls in production but most G.29/40 are E/M marked, these parts are probably just spare components assembled during the rifle shortage, as occurred at army and LW depots at the same time. Like those other services, they have unique features and serialing patterns.

More photos

Hi Loewe

Thank you for interest.

Here are some more Photos:

As you can see, the stock marking only content a "C" and a Nazieagel below and just visible.

Front sight has WaA 623, but you cant see it on the Picture.

There are no "09" number on the rear sight only WaA 623 and on the buttplate only WaA77

Buttplate is old flat type.

Right side of the reciever has WaA77 (I have exspectet 623)

Picture of bolt in NeXT post

JSNE

More Photos

Picture of bolt

JSNE


Pleace ask for more if you need it.

bolt and receiver and most all the small parts are e/77 radom. Radom made alot of spare parts. We just dont see many.. There was a fellow who bought a parts collection from an old time collector. He had Radom/steyr floor plates the were stacked 12 high If I remember correctly and banded for transport. As Radom was never use to complete rifles all the parts were shipped to steyr.

Thanks for the great pictures, I am surprised there are so many Steyr components (e/623) on the rifle, though we do not have many rifles recorded that have many original parts. Most of what we know about the variation is based upon JimP rifle, many of the others are rc's or heavily mismatched rifles, basically only barreled receivers with a part or two matching.

Your stock is a Menzel stock ("c" stock), typical of armorer spares and the G.29/40 program, the only other important thing that you could post is the barrel code, it would roughly date the rifle by the range of the barrel. While not perfect, usually I can date the barrel to a typical range of normal SDP production, though in this case, it being a depot build, it is less accurate but it might give us an idea of when the barrel was made at least. (the latest known barrel is a 1941 dated barrel, typical of the bnz/42 "f" block, a pretty high lot number, most are 1940 dated barrels)

The biggest question about these is when they were assembled, one can assume late 1941-1942 as the most likely range by known barrel codes and what we know of the "rifle shortage" expediencies that were part of the larger rationalization effort that occurred in German industry between May and December 1941.

Where is Hambone? I wonder if we can get the OP to post some better pics of these rifles in a new thread and be made a sticky?

This is a really great k98k and as usual, the info provided by the expert members here is extremely interesting. Great stuff