Questionable Camos

Player11 · Apr 23, 2017

Hambone said:
What he is saying is not "stupid". It is his opinion and he is entitled to it here. You are entitled to your opinions as well. However, what is not helping this site, forum, or the merits of your positions is your reliance upon personal insults. You would not be allowed to engage in such conduct elsewhere, so don't do it here. M45 and I disagree on things but he has a right here to express his opinions opposing mine. I do not censor people for disagreeing with me because the goal here is reaching the correct answer, the truth. That is what we are about here.

To me is stupid the way that he acts, you can read to somebody who is disturbed the way he "steals" the pics, i would feel injured if somebody "steals" my pics to judge my camos in such stupid way. This man( Dagoromagma) must have paid top money for it, has taken the effort of taking the pics so this "person" comes here to critizice it, how would you fell? If it would be done in a intelligent way, ok i would could accept, but "stealing" a helmet to post here and then say "stupid opinion" like " fakers uses period pics to create their jobs " is one of the most stupid things i have ever read.

He is not in the 100 % reason, but he acts like if he was the real one with the right reason and everybody else is bad

And forgive me for my manners, but if somebody wants to be respeted, he may begin to respet each others,and i dont see it in M45 way of judging camos.

M45 · Apr 23, 2017

dagoromagna, in this day and age of the internet with information at our fingertips, not every camo needs a hands-on as in the past. Good clear photos are sufficient in many cases IMO.

Notice that strange material pattern on these 3 medic helmets ? Boy, that's odd. Could indicate a common source ?

I believe Ken N. sold two of these and one by ruptured duck ?

ZF41 K98k · Apr 23, 2017

Niblet said:
I'm afraid I dont understand this "handling" issue,,,,this seems to be the biggest argument when I comment on
camos,,I get the immediate "how many camos do you own" or "how many have you handled" question?
the answer to both is ZERO.

I have not owned or handled a "Rounder" Knights Cross either,,but from looking at books, forums and hundreds of photos
I can now distinguish a "Rounder" Knights cross when I see one,,,and of course the same applies with something as common as dog poop.
I have never handled it (with bare hands at least) but I know that when i see a picture of it, I understand what it is,,,,

the same applies to Camos IMHO,,,the contrived wear, tool marks,,heavy wear to the liner and not the helmet itself,
different levels of corrosion going on around the helmet, lack of wear to certain "high wear" area's etc , lack of even some basic provenance
etc,,,,all are indicitive of ,,,,artisitic creations,,plain and simple,,it doesnt take somone with above average intelligence to sort it out!!

We can all do that for the "obvious" fakes - the likes of the eBay Latvian specials etc etc, but on the part of not handling any at all, you are, IMHO, wrong.

After handling these things, the 100% real deal so to speak, you WILL be able to tell a good camo 99% of the time from then on out - that figure being with an in-hand inspection. It is on a whole other level to just reading books/looking at pics online, as often it is also about the 'feel' of the piece (as BS as that may sound!).

Collectors on here who I know have had that experience, will I'm sure likely agree with that sentiment. I also think it's a general rule that applies for most things too, not just helmets or even militaria... medals are the polar opposite to camouflaged helmets, where no next book will tell you which scheme is right or wrong.

Though of course, if you own a helmet in a scheme seen in some period photo, then going off this thread, you've well and truly had it! :faint:

M45 · Apr 23, 2017

To answer the burning question, I have never owned or even held an authentic German medic helmet. You might think that should disqualify me from commenting on medic helmets at all.

But the thing is, most other helmet collectors have never owned or even held an authentic German medic helmet either. They are that rare.

I see promise with this KM medic. Nice wear patina to factory paint and bare steel; a nice smooth dark rust patina.

Quite a contrast to nearly all other purported medics.

Niblet · Apr 23, 2017

ahhhh see thats these guys's "out" since each camo is an "individual" creation then there is no "metrics"
to judge it from so it is really just subjective,,,nice ,,,,so with frame of mindset its no wonder you guys have thousand of dollars worth
of movie props in your collections Lol!! :laugh:

the old saying "you cant fix stupid" comes to mind

ZF41 K98k · Apr 23, 2017

Niblet said:
ahhhh see thats these guys's "out" since each camo is an "individual" creation then there is no "metrics"
to judge it from so it is really just subjective,,,nice ,,,,so with frame of mindset its no wonder you guys have thousand of dollars worth
of movie props in your collections Lol!!

the old saying "you cant fix stupid" comes to mind

You can laugh and heckle all you like, but who knows, some day you might actually realise that it does add a lot more than you think.... so if you know it all from your books and online perusing, then where actually are your helmets to show for it? Me and "these guys" will look forward to seeing your first... :thumbsup:

M45 · Apr 23, 2017

M45 said:
NEW! Item 622 M42 Medic helmet

http://www.germanhelmetsinc.com/helmetssale.htm

This is one of the very few medic helmets which I judged as real from the second I laid my eyes on it. A true "one looker" in every regard. It started out life as a single decal army helmet (shell size 64) from EF; most likely produced in 1942. The helmet was subsequently overpainted by brush in a semi-matte off-white finish with a single red cross applied by brush to the front. There are several paint runs and significant crazing, particularly in the recesses of the flared edge. The original factory applied eagle decal is seen beneath the over-paint. If you have been on the hunt for a medic helmet which requires no explanation and no blind faith; you may want to consider this one. It is my unshakable belief that this helmet is 100% legitimate. $5800.00

Notice that some photos of the far exterior have been shaded but not the liner shot. Post #1 of this thread shows a similar technique used by this seller to photograph white helmets. Red cross far too bright and new looking, very light general wear (well-distributed minor wear).

M45 said:
Item 801 M40 Medic helmet

http://www.germanhelmetsinc.com/helmetssale.htm

Medic camos are among the most often and well-faked helmets out there. But this is a one you will never have to worry about. The cross runs completely from side to side and front to back. 90-95% of the original red and white paint remains. The helmet is a Q66 no-decal of 1943 vintage. The liner is damaged on a couple of the fingers But the overall honesty of this piece more than makes up fir it. The chinstrap is by all indications original to the helmet. If you have ever wanted a "one looker" medic, you may want to consider this one. $5500

I agree that medic helmets are often faked, along with those off-the-wall decaled helmets like Teno, Spanish blue Division, French Legion, East Indian regiment, Sauerland Volkssturm, and so on. There are probably far more fakes of those helmets than originals that have survived. I worry alot about faked helmets in this hobby, and when someone tells me not to worry, I worry all the more. The fact that the cross runs completely from side to side and front to back almost clinched it for me. I was almost a believer The 90-95% figure given would probably be more accurately applied to the helmets probable restoration. The Q66 S4517 lot number I think is more likely to be late 1944-1945. (My opinion on this, is that very late helmets are the least likely to have had elaborate period field mods. Possible certainly, but unlikely, I think). The fact that the liner is damaged is also a good indicator of non-originality IMO, as an ND helmet with a damaged liner is a low-dollar helmet, similar to heavily worn reissues that often "grow" components such as wire, decals and camo paint during the postwar years. Low dollar helmets are good candidates for restoration, unlike good conditioned decaled helmets that already have high value. A "one-looker" helmet ?

Quite a number of these medics have 'appeared' over the years. Certainly more expensive than the average questionable camo (2-4K) at 5-6K.

Advice on finding 'authentic' medic helmets ?

-Find the true 'one-lookers in every regard'

-Find the ones with 'the cross that runs completely from side to side and front to back'.

NOTE: there's nothing here that represents originality IMO.

Niblet · Apr 23, 2017

ZF41 K98k said:
You can laugh and heckle all you like, but who knows, some day you might actually realise that it does add a lot more than you think.... so if you know it all from your books and online perusing, then where actually are your helmets to show for it? Me and "these guys" will look forward to seeing your first...

you will never see a camo in my collection unless I somehow obtained from the vet himself or a family member that
I knew well,,,they dont appeal to me

Nzef1940 · Apr 23, 2017

Niblet and I quote you.

'I'm afraid I dont understand this "handling" issue,,,,this seems to be the biggest argument when I comment on
camos,,I get the immediate "how many camos do you own" or "how many have you handled" question?
the answer to both is ZERO.'

You are hilarious and thanks for your less than ZERO value contribution of credibility to this ongoing train wreck of a thread...

Bigdibbs88 · Apr 23, 2017

I would say, and I've seen several of the biggest 98 collectors here including Hambone say, that handling known originals is one of the best things you can do to help you pick out fakes. Whether it's 98s or camo helmets or uniforms, I think it remains true. Handling originals (and fakes?) is the best thing you can do. However, I don't think it's the be all end all. I have never handled a medic helmet I'd consider original, but id still feel comfortable making a call on one for myself with good pics. Same with a bsw...haven't owned one but could make a call. I question someone's opinion much more who hasn't/doesn't own camos though. There is a lot of knowledge transfer, not everything is a silo, but access to originals for study is very important I think.

M45 · Apr 23, 2017

Nzef1940 said:
Niblet and I quote you.

'I'm afraid I dont understand this "handling" issue,,,,this seems to be the biggest argument when I comment on
camos,,I get the immediate "how many camos do you own" or "how many have you handled" question?
the answer to both is ZERO.'

You are hilarious and thanks for your less than ZERO value contribution of credibility to this ongoing train wreck of a thread...

The "handling issue" is essentially used as a sledgehammer to wallop those who disagree with the good old boys. Remember the Champagne SS saga, those who questioned C-SS were hit with the old, "And how many SS helmets have you owned or handled ? Not many if any ? There! You don't have the experience to be telling US what is fake. WE, on the other hand have published them in books, issued COAs, found them in the woodwork with vet provenance, with ownership histories, and vetted on forums. So don't be telling US what is fake until you get a whole bunch of experience under your belt !! "

Remember that line of B.S. ? And how did it all turn out ? C-SS was proven to be a postwar fake - ALL of them. So that story should tell you that the "handling issue" means diddly-squat.

The same is true of camos and medics. They may have "handled" a lot more than we have, but what does that really matter when the majority of what they have "handled" were modern movie-props.

Niblet · Apr 23, 2017

M45 said:
The "handling issue" is essentially used as a sledgehammer to wallop those who disagree with the good old boys. Remember the Champagne SS saga, those who questioned C-SS were hit with the old, "And how many SS helmets have you owned or handled ? Not many if any ? There! You don't have the experience to be telling US what is fake. WE, on the other hand have published them in books, issued COAs, found them in the woodwork with vet provenance, with ownership histories, and vetted on forums. So don't be telling US what is fake until you get a whole bunch of experience under your belt !! "

Remember that line of B.S. ? And how did it all turn out ? C-SS was proven to be a postwar fake - ALL of them. So that story should tell you that the "handling issue" means diddly-squat.

The same is true of camos and medics. They may have "handled" a lot more than we have, but what does that really matter when the majority of what they have "handled" were modern movie-props.

Absolutely brilliant response, I could not have said it better,,exactly the point I was trying to convey
Thanks again M45 for your good work,,dont let these guys get you down,,you keep doing what you do :thumbsup:

Hambone · Apr 23, 2017

Bigdibbs88 said:
I would say, and I've seen several of the biggest 98 collectors here including Hambone say, that handling known originals is one of the best things you can do to help you pick out fakes. Whether it's 98s or camo helmets or uniforms, I think it remains true. Handling originals (and fakes?) is the best thing you can do. However, I don't think it's the be all end all. I have never handled a medic helmet I'd consider original, but id still feel comfortable making a call on one for myself with good pics. Same with a bsw...haven't owned one but could make a call. I question someone's opinion much more who hasn't/doesn't own camos though. There is a lot of knowledge transfer, not everything is a silo, but access to originals for study is very important I think.

Well said, and not just because I agree :laugh:

Back in the day we didn't have multiple instant hi-rez photo images from around the world, so hands on was the best you could hope for. In many instances, hi-rez digital photos can go a long way toward authenticating, or at least IDing fakery. However, I have noted differences in what something looks like in digital pics vs. what it looks like in your hands, in natural light.

Unlike K98ks which are more prone to objective authentication, many (perhaps most) of the time, camo painted helmets are authenticated by subjective opinions. That is why there will always be debate. However, the debates created good information and knowledge, IMHO. The problem with censoring or controlling opinions is that we lose transparency. Would you rather see spirited open debate or just what a moderator or site decides that you should see? What if the moderator and his buddies are selling high end "exotic freshies" and using the forums to vet them for eventual sale?

GHW2 is my "referral" site for in depth helmet discussion and debate. They are a helmet site with a weapons forum; we are a weapons site with a German Militaria forum. :happy0180:

M45 · Apr 23, 2017

M45 said:
NEW! Item 622 M42 Medic helmet

http://www.germanhelmetsinc.com/helmetssale.htm

This is one of the very few medic helmets which I judged as real from the second I laid my eyes on it. A true "one looker" in every regard. It started out life as a single decal army helmet (shell size 64) from EF; most likely produced in 1942. The helmet was subsequently overpainted by brush in a semi-matte off-white finish with a single red cross applied by brush to the front. There are several paint runs and significant crazing, particularly in the recesses of the flared edge. The original factory applied eagle decal is seen beneath the over-paint. If you have been on the hunt for a medic helmet which requires no explanation and no blind faith; you may want to consider this one. It is my unshakable belief that this helmet is 100% legitimate. $5800.00

Notice that some photos of the far exterior have been shaded but not the liner shot. Post #1 of this thread shows a similar technique used by this seller to photograph white helmets. Red cross far too bright and new looking, very light general wear (well-distributed minor wear).

dagoromagna said:
I own the helmet depicted in pictures N°1 and N°8.
By the way picture N°8 is mine.

The helmet firstly appeared in this thread on the (here) infamous WAF: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599941&highlight=M42+field+made+cover&page=2

I have the helmet in hands as the second owner, the first owner was a Collector Friend of mine, that sold the helmet to a well known dealer (an immediate kiss of Death for Mr.Ice...who has a personal problem with the above seller, but that shouldn't affect the helmet evaluation in this "K98-perfect-Forum-where-honesty-is-in-first-place").

Yes...camos are heavily faked.
Red Cross and snow camos are easy to fake.

But Mr.Ice didn't handle all the Red Cross and Snow camos in the world.
Nor he handled all the camos.

It's not true that a real camo MUST be heavily worn...this GI collected a real and "minty" Red Cross...what if he brought home that one and handled it carefully 'til our days?

There were unlucky Germans that fought and died with their camoed helmets at the Front.
There were lucky Germans who camoed their helmets even if not involved in Frontline duties (It's easy to see it in European Museums, for example in Jersey and Guernsey).

BTW....I'm happy with my helmet and think that is real.
If somebody here wants to see more of it just ask.
I dont' act as a guru trying to educate masses with my theories.
I usually don't steal photos from Others to prove them.

This thread, while in its pages has some good points, became useless from page to page to improve knowledge in Collecting German Helmets and became a "Mr.Ice-and-his-adepts-against-the-World" crusade.

Over and out

There is another very real possible scenario here. A run of the mill M42 SD Heer helmet with likely worn decal ($4- 500 ?) was taken to someone's garage. Using period photos of German red cross helmets as his/her template, this person brush-applied white paint to the exterior (white paint .50). After the white paint dried, red paint (.10) was brush-applied in the form of a cross in the same location/shape as ones seen in period photos. After the paint was dry, the helmet was subjected to usual minor wear treatment with a possible stint out in the weather for a bit of age conditioning.

Your friend acquires the now Red Cross helmet with a nice story, sells it to Ken passing on the woodwork find story, who proclaims:

This is one of the very few medic helmets which I judged as real from the second I laid my eyes on it. A true "one looker" in every regard.
It is my unshakable belief that this helmet is 100% legitimate.

He then sells it to you for $5800.

They say that the important thing is that camo collectors are happy with their purchases, and you do seem to be pleased with it.

But consider if many similar scenarios have happend elsewhere, what would these faked red cross helmets look like? How would they appear different from yours ?

Photos 1 and 3 shaded. Photo 2 not shaded. Notice bright white paint drip to interior rim.

Frank F. · Apr 23, 2017

It appears that member "Acer" is now banned on GHW. Is there a connection between this tread and that incident?

Having a hard time connecting all the dots.

F.

Frank F. · Apr 23, 2017

Hambone said:
What he is saying is not "stupid". It is his opinion and he is entitled to it here. You are entitled to your opinions as well. However, what is not helping this site, forum, or the merits of your positions is your reliance upon personal insults. You would not be allowed to engage in such conduct elsewhere, so don't do it here. M45 and I disagree on things but he has a right here to express his opinions opposing mine. I do not censor people for disagreeing with me because the goal here is reaching the correct answer, the truth. That is what we are about here.

I'll drink to that.

F.

Nzef1940 · Apr 23, 2017

And there it is, the most one sided lame pathetic excuse for a balanced helmet thread.

Niblet · Apr 23, 2017

Frank F. said:
It appears that member "Acer" is now banned on GHW. Is there a connection between this tread and that incident?

Having a hard time connecting all the dots.

F.

Interesting

Frank F. · Apr 23, 2017

Nzef1940 said:
And there it is, the most one sided lame pathetic excuse for a balanced helmet thread.

I have asked it a number of times in different venues: what would be your suggestion for a way forward? You have punched out of this thread a number of times, yet you can't let go and keep coming back.

You know the market is gamed — how would you approach that issue?

F.

M45 · Apr 24, 2017

Nzef1940 said:
You are hilarious and thanks for your less than ZERO value contribution of credibility to this ongoing train wreck of a thread...

Nzef1940 said:
And there it is, the most one sided lame pathetic excuse for a balanced helmet thread.

Oh c'mon M8. Don't poke us in the eye and run off again and again. As Frank said, the market is gamed. And you can't win a game that's rigged against you.

You've got to admit to yourself that you may have made a mistake with camos. It is certainly nothing to be ashamed of. These high-end fakes are bang-on in almost every respect. We can beat this if we all work together.

But you've got to stop guzzling that cool-aid.

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