Of course,another voice of reason.
Questionable Camos
- Thread starter M45
- Start date
Of course,another voice of reason.
I am going to throw this out there. This may upset the balance. I have followed these specific helmet for A VERY LONG TIME. The series of photos I am going to post are not going to be in chronological order. But you will get the gist. I have also seen Giorgio buy OUTRIGHT fake white camo helmets many years ago from Jerry Bell at a MAX show roughly 15 years ago. You just have to trust me on that one!
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Player11
Right Nad
Nothing new, i would have never bought that helmet. I can put here a stone and say it belonged to Prehistory and ask a lot of money. This doesnt proof anything new
Player11
Right Nad
My apologises for those men who have good sense in this forum, like you. But reaching to this conclussion has taken to me years and years hanling them and after many conversation with old friends we have reach to this conclussion, and here a member can identify it just "wacthing" the pics?,please, my time also deserve a respet and this man like M45 is injurying to those collectors who are studying all those matters.
This is an example of what happens with camos, wacthing and judging them is not. by far, the same than handling them.
For this reason, the 70 % of this thread is a waste of time and many of the camos here questioned are made without a logical base after years and years of handling them and travelling and travelling.
Nobody, and less somebody who has never owned a camo helmet, is able to judge a camo for some pics. Well!!! he can do it but with the same result than Niblet with the KC
Frank F.
Well-known member
M45
Well-known member
Item 952 M42 Luftwaffe single decal camouflage helmet
Item 952 M42 Luftwaffe single decal camouflage helmet
http://www.germanhelmetsinc.com/helmetssale.htm
I love this one. It appears that two of the three standard vehicle camouflage paint colors was used in the camo pattern. With the green color lacking, this helmet has a more "tropical" appearance although I do assume it to have been painted for use on the Normandy front. 90% of the camouflage paint remains intact. One can just see the outline of the underlying Luftwaffe eagle. I have high-lighted the outline of the decal in one of the photos so that you will not have to squint to see it and thus; your wife will not walk into your office and see you squinting at the computer screen and demand to know just what it is you are looking at. The leather of the liner shows significant wear but it remains intact and sound. The chinstrap is long gone. This helmet costs $2750.00
Compare with 3 color normandy (last 3 photos), a good one IMO.
Item 952 M42 Luftwaffe single decal camouflage helmet
http://www.germanhelmetsinc.com/helmetssale.htm
I love this one. It appears that two of the three standard vehicle camouflage paint colors was used in the camo pattern. With the green color lacking, this helmet has a more "tropical" appearance although I do assume it to have been painted for use on the Normandy front. 90% of the camouflage paint remains intact. One can just see the outline of the underlying Luftwaffe eagle. I have high-lighted the outline of the decal in one of the photos so that you will not have to squint to see it and thus; your wife will not walk into your office and see you squinting at the computer screen and demand to know just what it is you are looking at. The leather of the liner shows significant wear but it remains intact and sound. The chinstrap is long gone. This helmet costs $2750.00
Compare with 3 color normandy (last 3 photos), a good one IMO.
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M45
Well-known member
3 tone normandy
https://fjm44.com/product/three-tone-normandy-camo-m42-helmet-2/
An extremely well done high-end replica IMO. The new face of German camo collecting. While REX-39's replicas are very good which I would rate about a 7 on a 1-10 scale, I would rate this an 8, a step above Rex's work. While Rex's work captures well the paint aging and wear, they have a shiny/greasy appearance that gives them away. This one doesn't have that and is very close to an original appearance.
I would rate the Luftwaffe camo above about a 5.
If I'm going to pay 1,750 euros for a high-end movie prop I would want something like this one, not a mid-low grade junker like the Luft camo.
https://fjm44.com/product/three-tone-normandy-camo-m42-helmet-2/
An extremely well done high-end replica IMO. The new face of German camo collecting. While REX-39's replicas are very good which I would rate about a 7 on a 1-10 scale, I would rate this an 8, a step above Rex's work. While Rex's work captures well the paint aging and wear, they have a shiny/greasy appearance that gives them away. This one doesn't have that and is very close to an original appearance.
I would rate the Luftwaffe camo above about a 5.
If I'm going to pay 1,750 euros for a high-end movie prop I would want something like this one, not a mid-low grade junker like the Luft camo.
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I agree 100%
Player11
Right Nad
Lets paly a game that, probably, will show how judging camos onpics is a pure disaster.
This helmet seem to be a real camo judging how M45 deal with it, ok.
If i play with the colours, put the red cross stronger, more vivid colours, touch the rust on it, turning it more yellow to look like a new rust....
If this helmet is shown here for the first time with those pics....Would have said the same M45?', the helmet is the same one, just retouched....
Easy game to show why judging camos, by pics, in not a real deal
This helmet seem to be a real camo judging how M45 deal with it, ok.
If i play with the colours, put the red cross stronger, more vivid colours, touch the rust on it, turning it more yellow to look like a new rust....
If this helmet is shown here for the first time with those pics....Would have said the same M45?', the helmet is the same one, just retouched....
Easy game to show why judging camos, by pics, in not a real deal
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M45
Well-known member
This thread is full of questionable camos from well known dealers. Some dealers have been consistently loaded with some really strange ones.
Lots of unanswered questions:
The ratio of camos to standard helmets has historically been on the low side. Now camos seem to be everywhere, seemingly near 50%.
Where are the dealers getting all of these camos ? They are not presenting much in the way of rock solid vet provenance so they must be getting them from other collectors and their picker friends.
Very easy for forgeries to enter the collectors market, especially if the people handling these things are not asking any questions.
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Niblet
Left Nad
REALLY???!!!
Fakes are exactly similar unless for two little details.
Iron Crosses, were made from Iron, nowadays making that iron need high and strong machines to bend the iron giving those shapes, the blac iron was exactly, put into the grey border with a machine that made that with a hard knock . today, making it need to be a strong machine or just made the two thing united.
THE ONLY WAY TO SEE IF AN IRON CROS IS ORIGINAL IS WITH A MAGNET PUTTING IT IN THE BLACK SURFACE, BECAUSE TODAY TO MAKE A BLACK IRON CROSS IS VERY EXPENSIVE. The usually arent made of iron and are made both shapes blac and border in one piece, they allways were made by separate
The only other way to see if a Iron Cross is genuine is to put it on its profile and to see the fine line that divided the iron from the grey border.
And you can see it by the pics???!!! hope you wont have bought yet any of those
Maybe im giving too much clues to fakers by your fault
Are you for real? I hope your joking,,now I know why you collect camos
Niblet
Left Nad
At this point Brian,, why bother? these guys have their "collective" minds made up
and after the reply from the "collector" about his knowledge of Iron Crosses I now understand they type we are
dealing with here,no education,,,if he even read one chapter of Dietrich Maerz work on the Iron Cross he would begin to understand,,but its clear to me he has zero knowledge of the subject but yet proclaims utter rubbish as truth,,and he is convinced!!
,trust me NO AMOUNT of words, wisdom or anything is going to change their mind
until someday, somehow they actually loose thousands on a helmet deal and even then they would just get angry at everyone else
except themselves
I cried loud and long in the early years about a dealer named Craig Gottlieb,,,posted evidence time after time,,I was booted from forums
called every name in the book,why? because alot of guys bought items from him,,to the tune of THOUSANDS,,,,now years later he was FINALLY outed for the crook he was/is and was booted from every
militaria forum I can think of,,now he digs up German corpses on live TV....some kind of militaria archeology show
My point is, it will unfortunately be a long time before these guys wake up and realize where the camo collecting portion
of the helmet hobby is/has been going, someday you will be given credit for the early work you did and maybe just maybe you will be thanked by many for it.
for now, I dont know how you maintain the energy to deal with these guys,,,
and after the reply from the "collector" about his knowledge of Iron Crosses I now understand they type we are
dealing with here,no education,,,if he even read one chapter of Dietrich Maerz work on the Iron Cross he would begin to understand,,but its clear to me he has zero knowledge of the subject but yet proclaims utter rubbish as truth,,and he is convinced!!
,trust me NO AMOUNT of words, wisdom or anything is going to change their mind
until someday, somehow they actually loose thousands on a helmet deal and even then they would just get angry at everyone else
except themselves
I cried loud and long in the early years about a dealer named Craig Gottlieb,,,posted evidence time after time,,I was booted from forums
called every name in the book,why? because alot of guys bought items from him,,to the tune of THOUSANDS,,,,now years later he was FINALLY outed for the crook he was/is and was booted from every
militaria forum I can think of,,now he digs up German corpses on live TV....some kind of militaria archeology show
My point is, it will unfortunately be a long time before these guys wake up and realize where the camo collecting portion
of the helmet hobby is/has been going, someday you will be given credit for the early work you did and maybe just maybe you will be thanked by many for it.
for now, I dont know how you maintain the energy to deal with these guys,,,
Player11
Right Nad
Well, answering to you is so easy that it will take few words because i would like to fight with somebody with more knowledges than you, but unfortunately you wont be ever in that point, just wacthing how you give arguement to yours statements. So for me you are like a cartoon.
I gave my knowledge after years of study, knowing how they were fabricated ( probably, you still believe that they pop up like art of magic), believe it or not ( i really dont care and dont hesitate your point of view, but reading your reply you should be worried) they were made like that, and if you dont know how they were made you wont find out how to identify, because fakes today are made in one piece, original in two.
You only reply to my question how do you identify them was:
" you can easily identify a "rounder" knights cross from some simple visual ques,,you dont need to fondle one" so i also know and understand how fakers are finding a great benefit in this field. Thanks to God many people dont think like you.
Thanks for making me the day happier, i have laught with you a lot !!
M45
Well-known member
You and all others who have warned of fakery in this hobby and suffered abuse at the hands of the good old boys are heroes. There has always been fakery but the hobby could bear up under the relatively few who were being burned and left never to return. But today it is becoming so proliferate that there seems to be more predators than prey. When that happens in the jungle there is usually a hard reset. I have seen a number of dealers close shop in the last months and don't know if it's due to poor business in general or if collectors have wised up and avoid them.
The Champagne SS fraud turned a light on in a dark room and showed the hobby the extent of its cockroach infestation. But unfortunately, that's not the only room in the house with a problem.
mauser99
Senior Member
I would say you are correct on these points.. The collecting masses as a whole have become more educated and knowledgeable. This will do what you are seeing happen here.. Also there are less buyers and people joining due to the rabid fakes out there. Flipping for honest profit or just trading up have become harder and harder as stuff is coming down in price and people who don't know better want more for their stuff due to internet price shopping. I have but the brakes on all my buying for the most part other than the one odd or end I buy for myself.
Attn: An uneducated buyer is a dealers best friend. Closet collectors are also great prey. Many guys never post or show their stuff and end up with tons of fakes. Most older collections are littered with fakes and getting into one is a mine field. Just because the guy is old and has been collecting for years don't mean squat !
As has been said here and other places this is one of the safest times to be a collector of 3R items.. Most forums can offer almost instant authentication due to some of the best in their fields are there waiting to help. A smart phone and a forum membership will save you thousands on a purchase. I have been avail while friends have been on site looking at stuff point click post done.. We all cant know everything and the pool of collective knowledge on line is amazing. ALSO; if a deal seems to good to be true it probably is. Done ever rush into a purchase if you don't know best to just walk away.
I cant stress enough the importance of getting out going to shows and putting your hands on items real or not.
Saying you can properly judge camo's from photos only is like saying your good @ sex from watching Porno's ....
See below: another lesson in digital photos tow photos of a Jap NCO sword scabbard. Color is an olive brown. See one photo where it looks brighter green and then the other where you can see the true correct color.. One looks like a Chinese fake the other real. Same sword.. So judging camo's " RAL colors off " How do you know what your seeing is what the helmet really looks like ????
A lot of helmets not taken in the correct lighting can show colors off 3 or 4 shades from my experience. I have one Ive never posted cause every time Ive taken photos of it it's 3 shades off and looks horrible. My 2 cents..
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M45
Well-known member
GHW2 Another work of art. Some of Claud Monet's work for comparison.
So you're saying that photos can alter the appearance of colors. Someone else said that these paints were issued in tins of base that were mixed with thinning agents and there was a wide variety in results.
In that case, I guess anything goes with camouflage helmet colors, ANYTHING.
Also, camos are subjective, one of a kind creations by soldiers in the field using their creativity and anything they could find. Since they used all sorts of materials and methods, really ANYTHING is possible.
With all of this in mind, how could camo collectors ever be 100% sure that what they're buying is not a modern creation ?
Answer: they can't. They are relying on gut feelings, forum vettings, COAs, opinions of friends, guarantees and firm beliefs by dealers, and the existences of similar vetted camos in well known collections.
The bottom line seems to be, if the camo collector likes it, that is really the important thing. Actual authenticity takes a back seat while the authentic price is not compromised.
ASSESSMENT: An exotic 3 color Normandy but RAL colors are off. Red brown appears as burgundy. Heavy wear to rim and vents despite near 99% coverage with just a few prominent chips to the paint. It has that 'used but not abused look that we like to see'. A work of art that took time and planning to achieve.
While I have no doubt that camos with similar exotic schemes existed wartime, they were few and far between compared to other camos, IMO. Then consider how many of them could have actually survived the war intact and were not buried in a giant hole, melted down for scrap, reworked for a West European military/civic service, or turned into kitchen or farm implements.
Of those that did survive all this and were brought home as war booty, how many did not find their way into high end collections that we never get to see ?
So you're saying that photos can alter the appearance of colors. Someone else said that these paints were issued in tins of base that were mixed with thinning agents and there was a wide variety in results.
In that case, I guess anything goes with camouflage helmet colors, ANYTHING.
Also, camos are subjective, one of a kind creations by soldiers in the field using their creativity and anything they could find. Since they used all sorts of materials and methods, really ANYTHING is possible.
With all of this in mind, how could camo collectors ever be 100% sure that what they're buying is not a modern creation ?
Answer: they can't. They are relying on gut feelings, forum vettings, COAs, opinions of friends, guarantees and firm beliefs by dealers, and the existences of similar vetted camos in well known collections.
The bottom line seems to be, if the camo collector likes it, that is really the important thing. Actual authenticity takes a back seat while the authentic price is not compromised.
ASSESSMENT: An exotic 3 color Normandy but RAL colors are off. Red brown appears as burgundy. Heavy wear to rim and vents despite near 99% coverage with just a few prominent chips to the paint. It has that 'used but not abused look that we like to see'. A work of art that took time and planning to achieve.
While I have no doubt that camos with similar exotic schemes existed wartime, they were few and far between compared to other camos, IMO. Then consider how many of them could have actually survived the war intact and were not buried in a giant hole, melted down for scrap, reworked for a West European military/civic service, or turned into kitchen or farm implements.
Of those that did survive all this and were brought home as war booty, how many did not find their way into high end collections that we never get to see ?
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