Third Party Press

Stupidity...and it is far from "mint"

Over cleaned

The whole gun has a over cleaned look to me. The metal as well as the wood. It didn't look factory new, just over cleaned. No petina any where, just signs of polish every where. Bill
 
I like descriptions such as "minty" or 98% too for nice stuff, but I tend to use those terms (sparingly) in a frame of reference...Im not sure if that is the way to do it, but if I said, for example, "minty" or 98%, I would mean for a gun that is 65 years old give or take...not the same as "minty" as in made last week at the Winchester factory
 
Here's some pics of a blonde that I still need to get some better, outdoors pics of. She's actually a bit lighter to the naked eye. She's not mint or nearly as nice as some of the others posted here, but is honest and not abused, at least...


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for future reference, when the auction is gone, this gun sold for $7,200! :

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"Description for Item # 179104623
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As many of you have seen, we are selling the life long collection of Harry W. Sanford, one of the great gun gurus of the 20th Century. Harry W. Sanford was also my dad. He was the originator of the AutoMag, AMT, and other gun companies. He spent his whole life making, dealing, and collecting guns.

Besides developing some of the best stainless pistols and rifles in the world, Dad had a life previous to manufacturing. He worked or owned gun shops in one of the richest areas of the US. He worked in Pasadena, California, at Golden State Arms and had his own gunshop. The stuff that came into that shop was unbelievable. I know because he let me work in his gun shop when I was a kid.

People always brought him their gun, especially the little old ladies. He had a reputation for being fair; however, he did take home the cream of the crop. I always lusted after the stuff, but there are firm instructions on how to dispose of this collection. We thought we were done, but there has been another "need" that has come up, so the best of the best is now being auctioned.

This is the famous Nazi 8mm semi automatic rifle that our GI's encountered from early 1944, the D-Day/Normandy landings, through Europe, the "Battle of the Bulge" and until the end of the war. They were well used at the end of the war and that is the reason you never see something like this.

This is virtually new, and it was a veteran bring back from 65 years ago. It has it all! The accessories alone are impossible to find, but wait until you see this rifle.

Up for auction is a GERMAN/NAZI WWII G.43 RIFLE MFGR./DATE "duv 44" (BERLIN LUBECKER 1944) ALL MATCHING, ORIGINAL AND ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL. As mentioned, this was a WWII "vet" capture bring back. This is an 8MM caliber with serial number 2031f. This is an absolutely beautiful and virtually mint Berlin Lubecker "duv 44" example of the Nazi 1944 "g.44" rifle.

This may be one of the finest to survive. It even comes with it's standard original G.43 (not standard K-98) tall, front sight hood and also has it's original cleaning rod that is actually marked (rarely found) Berlin Lubecker "NAZI EAGLE OVER 214" proofed (same as the rifle itself).

Plus it has it's original untouched "aye, Nazi eagle/WaA845, K.43" marked and proofed magazine. This gun also has the following features:
It has the rear receiver action/spring housing that has the bolt carrier sliding dust cover (also as on the early "G.41 variation) instead of the late variation that must be manually closed with the thumb.
It also has the early bolt carrier with the hold open catch on it that was also eliminated in later production and with out this feature the G/K.43 rifle are quite a chore to disassemble and re-assemble.

This is a virgin G.43 rifle that is magnificent and all matching and original throughout both externally and internally plus remarkably has a mint bore. Few will ever be found such as this as most have mis-matched internals. This is so outstanding and this example even has both trigger housing screws. They're absolutely beautiful as are their slots.

This is indeed quite a rarity on any of these rifles. All proofs and markings are absolutely 100% factory perfect and as struck in 1944 at the Berlin Lubecker Factory. The left front receiver is perfectly marked with the Berlin-Lubecker NAZI EAGLE OVER 214, g.43 duv 44. All are absolutely factory perfect being exceptionally deep, sharp, and crisp as the day in 1944 when factory stamped.

The bolt carrier/cocking piece also has the Berlin-Lubecker NAZI EAGLE OVER 214 proof on it's top rear and 2031 serial number on the left rear. The bore is beautiful, bright, shiny, and mint. It is virtually factory new with the rifle and it is no doubt fired very little.

This is a very exceptional if not the only Nazi G.43 rifle not to have corrosion because any Nazi WWII weapon was affected due to the highly corrosive ammo. The action and mechanicals are also superb and also virtually factory new. This too is quite unusual for any Nazi K or G.43 as most are quite sluggish or bind up.

Being of earlier 1944 production, it is G.43 marked instead of the later-marked K.43 rifle. The stock is perfectly serial numbered 2031 over on it's bottom butt with the Berlin-Lubecker Nazi Eagle over 214. Proof is on the lower grip area just behind the trigger housing.

Also on the right rear butt stock are 2 more stacked Nazi Eagle/214 proofs. All are factory perfect and deep, sharp, and crisp. The bare metal butt plate typically has some slight staining but remains totally untouched, never cleaned or messed with. The magazine is the rifle's original late war "aye," WaA843 and K43 marked magazine that is also absolutely 100% factory original, untouched and never re-painted, cleaned or messed with.

Very few of these survive in any where near this magnificent, virgin condition and originality. This gun is simply as good as it gets. I do not believe this rifle can ever be bettered.

The sling is impressed with the logo/factory abbreviation "ADK" on both Riemenplatte/'Frosch' and inside of the sling at the buckle as well as possible very faint illegible ink stamp at same location. The leather is strong and supple and shows little use. It is not old soaked and has no tears or rips. It also retains it's strong crosshatching. All stitches are tight and intact, both on sling and leather loop keeper. This is the original late 1944/45 manufacture of sling for this rifle.

The original oiler is in the butt stock. The original and mint manual is in the butt stock of the gun as is the extra parts kit. It might take you decades to find one this nice. I know Dad was impressed with it and it was found in the "special" safe.

CONDITION: In regards to being of earlier manufacture, the untouched factory metal finish has all blued parts and it to is as close to new as any will get. This gun rates easily at 98+%. The laminated wood set is absolutely beautiful being a most superb, medium light blond color with virtually no service staining or use and rates as minty, crisp as a new dollar, with both stock and the dark reddish brown colored Bakelite (Durofol) hand guard the same exact in condition. Both fit up perfectly and perfectly matching in fit easily seen as unquestionably original to each other! This is quite rare as most all K/G.43 rifles have very loose fitting hand guards and these Bakelite (Durofol) hand guards are very prone to cracking and splitting due to their age and brittleness through out the years.

It has a MINT bore. The sling is in excellent plus condition. The oiler is in perfect condition. The manual is in mint condition. The extra parts kit is in mint condition.

I will get a hard case for this gun, which will be $20 added to the shipping but well worth the long-term assurance and insurance for your investment. I will attest to all of the above in writing if you request when you win.

I am starting this puppy at $1.00 with no reserve, so someone is going to add this piece of history to their investment plan. Let this put your kids through college.

If you need terms on this purchase, please contact me way before the end of the auction.

Let me see -- this was owned by one of the greatest gun gurus of the 20th century, mint condition, all matching, and a huge piece of World War 2 history. This is rare as can be with all accessories included. If you miss this one, you will be thinking about it for the rest of your life.

Our business can take credit cards, but for these estate auctions we will have to charge you a 3.5% charge for the use of your credit card. We do this because this is what they charge us. If payment is a non-cashier's check, I need to hold shipment for 10 days. We package VERY well to ensure a safe arrival to you. Good luck in your bidding! "

and despite the auction description, that is NOT a G41 dust cover, it is an automatic for stamped, G43
 

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I must respectfully disagree with some of the conclusions and current schools of thought regarding stocks on G43s. First of all, there were over 400,000 of these rifles built, by 3 different manufacturers, under much pressure and varying conditions and availability of materials. Various glues were used...various lots of wood in its raw form...I'm sure varying degrees of preparation...some was probably over-dried, some not dried enough...some had stain applied, some did not....some were machined with more care to a finer finish, and some were hastily turned with less thought given...I'm sure variations were created by differing philosophies of those responsible for production, also depending on outside pressures from their superiors in the chain of command....ie...run the machines faster, don't sharpen the tools as often, etc...
To expect one particular wood finish to be the only "correct" one is folly. Sure, the heavily sanded, or urethane coated wood is ghastly....but rough, late war is not necessarily the standard that should be applied across the board. Comparing an earlier BLM produced gun to an AC45 is apples to oranges. Much is opinion and conjecture, but I feel that not all of the valid posibilities are being considered. I have seen far too many duv's with a smooth, almost waxy sheen, and fine scratch marks at diagonals to the grain, consistent from too many examples, to think that such a finish is not "correct" and original. Likewise, some finishes appear too rough. These guns were made 65 years ago. Weathering due to temperature cycles, and varying humidities inflicts stress on the wood. What some see as proper and rough, I see as distressed and swollen. I've seen stamped markings that exhibit signs of wood fibers swelling AFTER the stamp was applied. I've seen guns that are "correctly" rough on the outside, also looking dry, cracked and rough on the inside, where guns that are declared "sanded" are also smooth and tight, on the inside, where sanding would have been difficult at least, and unlikely for sure. I have a G41 with very smooth wood, and also pristine metal. A while back there was similar G41 with a swollen, weathered stock and what looked like scotch-brite scuffed metal, and folks were going ga-ga over it because "that's how the wood is SUPPOSED to look", but I am sure that mine is actually closer to original. Mine started smooth, and stayed that way...the other started smooth and turned rough as fibers lifted and separated...yet the "experts" would say mine was sanded, and disregard the obvious scrubbing of the metal patina which was caused by the same conditions that stressed the wood. I have a BCD with wood that some would say looks "too good", but if you pull off the buttplate, it looks like it was just painted yesterday, and the blueing is deep black. Somehow a gun with rougher wood, and corrosion inside the buttplate, and worn and oxidized blueing would be more correct...simply by virtue of the wood being more rough. On another forum, folks are tearing to shreds one of the nicest no-letter block duv's that I've ever seen, because the wood doesn't look like the rifle came right out of the crate at the Walther factory in mid 1945.
 
Hi Draz

thanks for your opinion, and in most respects I agree...ut again we're talking two different things...I would agree that original wood will look worn at times in various ways....but there is also a huge difference, between wood that has been sanded or cleaned (HUGE difference) and wood from a war horse....

also a big difference between a gun with mint wood, and something like the subject of this auction...NO way NO how....it is bad to confuse the two or muddy the water....it is not a good thing for newcomers, not a good thing for someone who pulls their grandpaps rifle out of an attic, sees that it is dirty and rough, and goes looking for advice, and then sees posts especially on a forum about G43 and K43s, saying that mint wood looks always blonde and always smooth, or that pics of a cleaned gun or sanded gun is the way it should look to be mint...now that is sad very sad IMO for two reasons, one the info is bad, and two now that person will potentially ruin the stock on grandpaps gun, thus ruining value and history

so I still hold out hope that all you are saying is that some guns will look worn, yes I agree! but dont ever call those guns mint, or near mint, and dont ever tell me that a gun with worn waffenamts, shadow of a serial number is original and correct...

I encourage you to post your gun, didnt you buy one from me? post them all and you can get some opinions from long time collectors who cherish originality

feel free to visit my fun post I started pretty much because of this auction and some bad info on the GK forum to be quite honest...take the test see how you do?

Hey I learned the hard way, and learned it through time and effort, seeing the bad from a collector who LOVED to clean his rifles stocks, I wont be shy about the effort I gave and still give, I upgraded, and upgraded and learned and as I found more and more untouched out of the attic examples it became quite obvious to me what cleaned and sanded wood looks like, vs worn wood, vs untouched wood, vs truly minty peices...

and in regards to minty pieces, I dont think there is anyone in the whole world who collects anything : stamps, beanie babies, whatever, that doesnt strive to, or at least admires minty examples, after all they are the supposed pinnacle of that area of collecting? especially value wise..... the information on what is original, what is untouched cannot be muddied or we will be giving bad info and worse potentially guiding someone to ruin a gun as so many already have been

now why do you think many GK43s and 98ks have suffered the fate of being sanded and cleaned??? I know why, precisely because many collectors over the years want to have a minty example and what does a minty example look like? deep proofs (even with a smooth early stock with polished finish, AND lightly struck waffenamts it is obvious that wood has not been cleaned or sanded IVE got examples and Ill get to them and post pics in my wood threads, when I say deep it can be relative youre correct), deep serial numbers, crisp edges, lack of dirt and black residue from cleaning in low spots and pores etc etc ...so they took attic fresh guns and cleaned them, they took war horses and sanded them blonde just like this duv44 IMO...and of course you had GIs who wanted fancy shiny hunting guns they couldnt afford, and that is why they brought these guns back to tinker, and to get that expensive "looking" hunting rifle, so they sanded them smooth, varnished them, or BLOd them as was the thing to do

the other bad thing about confusion, is that you have idiots with more money than experience or knowledge with bad advice too, spending enormous amounts of money on a bad gun, which will lead others to say "Hey grandpapas rifle is worth a million dollars, but looks at it, it looks honey brown, and rough, hmmmm maybe Ill sand it down and sell it on gunbroker!" but I guess I shouldnt complain too much, it makes my truly nice guns worth more too ???!!!???

Robert (Ladora) I hope you read this, please post some pics of the wood on the G43 I pulled out a woodpile you bought, the stock....BiO I know youve got a war horse bcd G43, bust out the pics, I need help, I think Im slowly saving Drazil!! I need examples of some photos!

nobody ever said there is one set standard rifle stock finish either, ??? please point me to where that was said? there is no way around original being original and modified being what it is...of course each gun will be a case by case basis, with some slightly differening opinons, but a stock with round edges, shadows of waffenamts, and shadows of serial numbers, or dark black flat looking serial numbers is most liekly modified...even if through use and carry!
 
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I'm trespassing on the G43 board. You all know I'm a 98k collector. I have a few thoughts on the topic so will leave them here then run.

Just like they occasionally drag out unfortunate, pre-historic creatures from glaciers in nearly-intact, NOS state, we have a few similar situations in our collecting world. The first such situation is the unissued Portuguese contract rifle. Through some miracle of politics and bureaucracy, pristine Kar.98k's manufactured by the reich wartime were allowed to slumber peacefully somewhere in Portugal until being "discovered" in the 1980's (or thereabouts) and sold on the world market. There is nothing oil-soaked about these stocks. The wood is nicely sanded but not glass-smooth. Inspection markings are crisp. I understand there was a similar discovery in the G71 or G71/84 world in the semi-recent past also. I have seen such a G71 (or G71/84? not my thing) and it appeared new. The interesting thing about it was that the stock finish and cartouches didn't appear noticeably different than what one sees on the unissued Portuguese contract rifles. The more recent "glacier" to hatch out rifles with untouched wood was the treasure trove of rifles taken from factories and supply points by US GI's at the end of the war. These (late war) rifles have stocks with a very distinctive appearance (like Wolfsburg's gorgeous bcd posted earlier). Their stocks frequently didn't have the chatter sanded out and they were stained AFTER assembly--usually including attachment of the sling. Under the woodline these stocks are naked, with the exception of the occasional drip making its way inside.

If I slather an original stock with cosmoline then wipe it down, it will no longer have the original appearance. If I clean with anything other than the mildest cleaner that original appearance will be gone. Steel wool changes the apperance. Sandpaper, esp. the finer grits really changes the appearance :facepalm:. Carrying a rifle on a regular basis changes the appearance through the grease left by hands and the dings left through contact with the environment.

Long story short, original wood has a fairly recognizable appearance and this appearance didn't seem to vary between the manufacturers. The more experienced collectors know that original appearance from three rows away in a gun show. I esp. like it when it shows up in crummy online auction photos that show no useful detail otherwise. As I mentioned, the Germans cut corners toward the end, but that is about it for variation in stock appearance.
 
If the intent is to keep folks from sanding their stocks in an attempt to "improve" their rifles condition, brilliant success has been achieved...in fact, I worry that folks will go overboard in the opposite direction. Now, whenever any new purchase is posted of a G43....any shine from the wood whatsoever.... and a chorus erupts about the wood having been sanded...all it seems to take are one or two pictures, and the gun is condemned. Doesn't matter what date or code...then, inevitably come the pictures of how wood SHOULD look, and lo and behold, we're looking at an AC45 plucked from the proverbial crate on the boxcar. I worry now that folks might come upon a glossy, correct early piece and feel compelled to reverse Bubba's attrocity, and delicately scuff the wood with something abrasive, wet it down, and leave it in the sun for a few days to restore its "correctness". It seems duvs are the main targets of these hazings.
 
Now I feel Ive lost you, and I can sense the sarcasm of the post you made that really is ridiculous...what you would be referring to in that post is someone restoring the wood to a gun, a whole different topic...you cannot compare someone modifying an original condition stock to someone modifying either making it worse or better, a stock that is already monkeyed with

please state clearly your point

Is there a difference for you between guns that have been modified, have original carry and wear??

Im beginning to think that you are just now either jealous, refusing to learn because of some chip on your shoulder, are somehow justifying your own guns condition, covering for lack of knowledge and experience you or the forum you frequent has??

I agree there will be guns with original wear

I agree that earlier manufactured guns will have a more polished finished stock

I agree that guns will be in varying stages of wear and use

I am not sure who you are constantly referring to, with it seems contempt for some reason, when you say "they" and those who invariably pull out late war guns with chatter???

I would certainly disagree with you and say that guns, no matter early or late, that are in prime untouched condition are worth more, are more rare, and are more desirable

I am confused, please state your motive, and your position clearly? and please state who you are constantly referring to and who you are obviously angry at?

I have and have had early and late guns and mid war guns in varying states of condition to include mint ones that you seem to despise for some reason, and in every case one can certainly see the difference between so called bubba'd examples and ones with original wear...and this is pretty much universal whether it is a k98, g43, vz24 etc etc?

Again I must say, it is better to argue specific guns, because it certainly can be a case by case basis, and that it is quite OK to say, for example, "in my opinion, I like guns that are carried and used, as opposed to more minty condition guns", but is it not OK to spew information that is bad to those that might be seeking it and not know any better, it is not OK to say something is what it is not...I encourage you to post your own examples of guns then so we can discuss, or participate in the thread I started about wood condition which I plan on continuing for some time
 
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Long story short, original wood has a fairly recognizable appearance and this appearance didn't seem to vary between the manufacturers. The more experienced collectors know that original appearance from three rows away in a gun show.

Word. As Tony Soprano said "you can't shovel the sh!t back in the donkey" just as you can't "unsand" a stock. :facepalm:
 
Well, maybe I have no clue what I'm talking about, but I don't believe that duv has been sanded. While over-hyped, and sold for twice what it's worth, I believe that the original gun in question is about as correct as a duv can be, (aside from the backwards cross-bolt) and is worth $3500 in my opinion. The AC45 with the rough wood (which I don't despise) is probably worth $4500 by virtue of being a milled panel gun, and therefore a rarer variant...also with correct wood for its code and date. I'm not angry and have no evil motives. I believe guns should have accurate values assigned. If I have any particular point, it is that early duv's (which I do not yet own)....seem to get savaged for having "sanded" wood which, while admittedly smooth compared to later production guns, is in my opinion actually correct. I'm just trying to get a better idea what a truly correct duv looks like, because I need one to fill a gap in my collection. I'm not trying to make waves, but I admit some frustration may have entered into my exchanges of late, so if my tone was unbecoming...for that I apologize.
 
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