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VZ24 thoughts - German used?

Claven2

Well-known member
I picked up a rather nice VZ24 this week. The shopkeep didn't know much about it, so I did NOT overpay. Cam out of an estate. It's all matching as far as I can tell. Bolt is not re-numbered. Matches receiver. Stock matches receiver. 3-digit assembly number inside the stock and handguard match each other. Bottom-metal un-numbered and every part on the rifle marked CZ. Bore about an 8/10. CZ proof at the wrist.

Rifle has the Czech army acceptance E (lion) 26 stamp and the pre-rampant lion roll stamp of the BRNO factory. 4 digit serial, B suffix. Siderail simply "vz24". Definitely has seen a fair bit of field use. No import markings anywhere. Nothing looks replaced, refinished or sanded.

Frankly, apart from not having ANY german markings, like a depot stamp on the wrist, it looks a lot like a vet bringback K98k in terms of condition.

Are there other ways a decent non-refurb early czech-used vz24 could get to North America besides coming back after the war?

I'll post pics tomorrow.
 
ok, so in other words, it either came back with a vet, or was imported in the relatively short window from 1950 to 1968?

Honestly, I find commercial importation to be low probability. As I unsertand it, Czech-issed 24's were virtually ALL pressed into some form of axis service after annexation, and those left after the war either got seized as reparations (likely the guns eventually sold to importers) or were refurbed and re-issued to post-war indigenous forces. (also likely sold to importers, but usually in refurb condition).

I guess there is no more way to know it's history than any other matching WW2 or earlier 98 that does not have capture documentation.

Here's another question though, would a czech army accepted VZ24 have ESCAPED axis use in WW2 by any means? Or were the very great majority used by the Third Reich and its allies after 1938?
 
looks like normal Czechoslovak Vz.24 military rifle, no any german upgrades visible, what is on buttstock disc? Could be captured by GI in Czechoslovakia too.
 
no expert on vz's but i also see nothing that would indicate german use.

OK, well basically my logic goes like this:

1) This rifle has no evidence of serving outside Czechoslovakia. In other words, it's not a Contract rifle.
2) In 1939, the Czech army came under Nazi control, for the most part, with annexation - the exception being the Slovak portion. There are no slovak markings, so I'm thinking it was in the German half of the country in 1939 (the part ceded to Germany).
3) All VZ24 army rifles in the German zone became part of the Wehrmacht supply system, correct?
4) Only a relatively small portion of the VZ24 rifles in German use were converted to G24(t) pattern. Most served in VZ24 trim and were captured at war's end.

So if the above is true, I'm thinking strong case for German use - probably in the west, or it would be an RC.
 
Not every vz24 in German service was modified. You can't prove this one was German used, but it was very likely in German inventory from 1938-1945. I like it!
 

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OK, well basically my logic goes like this:

1) This rifle has no evidence of serving outside Czechoslovakia. In other words, it's not a Contract rifle.
2) In 1939, the Czech army came under Nazi control, for the most part, with annexation - the exception being the Slovak portion. There are no slovak markings, so I'm thinking it was in the German half of the country in 1939 (the part ceded to Germany).
3) All VZ24 army rifles in the German zone became part of the Wehrmacht supply system, correct?
4) Only a relatively small portion of the VZ24 rifles in German use were converted to G24(t) pattern. Most served in VZ24 trim and were captured at war's end.

So if the above is true, I'm thinking strong case for German use - probably in the west, or it would be an RC.

Just like Ryan said, many were used but not modified. Not all vz's went to g24t style, there are vz's with only minor modifications. This very well may have been German used, just no way to prove it. I don't think you can really claim it's a German used vz24 with no depot markings or German mods. Without those it's just Czech in most people's opinions despite the fact that it may have served with the Germans.
 
Just like Ryan said, many were used but not modified. Not all vz's went to g24t style, there are vz's with only minor modifications. This very well may have been German used, just no way to prove it. I don't think you can really claim it's a German used vz24 with no depot markings or German mods. Without those it's just Czech in most people's opinions despite the fact that it may have served with the Germans.

This is an extremely reasonable view.
 
This is an extremely reasonable view.

Agreed....if not used by the Germans, they were used or held by the Axis. Generally they were used as gap stop rifles and many even if used by the Germans will have no German markings as the quality was recognized as being on par with German production.

There is a similar debate between Star B pistols delivered to Germany or Bulgaria. Unless depot marked or one of the few exceptions were wAa's were applied, I think it is almost impossible to tell if the pistol was used by Germany or Bulgaria (as long as the pistol is in the correct letter code). Nevertheless, the pistol was still used by the Axis and most likely the intention was to be used against the Soviets.
 
Just like Ryan said, many were used but not modified. Not all vz's went to g24t style, there are vz's with only minor modifications. This very well may have been German used, just no way to prove it. I don't think you can really claim it's a German used vz24 with no depot markings or German mods. Without those it's just Czech in most people's opinions despite the fact that it may have served with the Germans.

forgive my ignorance, but after 1939, there are only 3 possibilities for czech guns until 1944 or so, are there not?

1) rifle was in the czech zone and became a weapon of the Reich.
2) Stayed in the Slovak zone and fought on the axis side, but not really Reich property. High probability of Russian Capture in this case.
3) Ended up in another country (Bulgaria perhaps?) somehow when Czechoslovakia temporarily ceased to exist in 1939, and... what? In this case, I'm thinking it would likely have been Russian captured since the Soviets liberated Bulgaria (?)

Any other options out there?
 
Some thoughts...

From period reports (actually postwar reports-interviews of German officers) when Germany occupied the country they haphazardly gathered all the military equipment of the Czech Army and hastily brought it to Germany (the depots) and it was so chaotically done that they never sorted it all out. Parts were sent without regard to other components, not tagged, not organized in any meaningful way. They apparently were a bit surprised by the windfall and just rushed to remove it to a safe place. Poland was much the same but worse, much was just dumped in piles, some of which barely guarded and much was lost to pilfering and weather. Most rifles probably ended up with minimal alteration as the quality of Czech rifles was equal or superior to German rifles of the period. (they had achieved fully interchangeable parts manufacture, - the Germans never did, though it was much better than the Imperial era... they could have, the Germans had a machine tool industry nearly the equal of America and Britain, not quite perhaps due to the interwar situation, but quite capable of fully interchangeable parts making.)

Brünn II (dou) was never property of Slovakia, prior to Munich it was property of the state (70% or so, the rest privately owned- banks mostly, which the Reichswerke quickly bought) and after March 1939 its operations were always directed by the Germans (obviously the workers were mostly Czechs or Slovaks, but they had minimal say and no decision in where the rifles went.. they brag about this in postwar reports, following orders and never offering ideas to improve quality or production. Which I am sure was true... they also speak about the consequences of doing otherwise.).

Although Slovakia shared a name in the countries title, they were behind the German population in the state of Czechoslovakia. Germans (3.2 million) made up the largest minority after Czechs (7 million). The Czech population actually represented just less than half the countries total population at the time, they united with the Slovaks (2.5 million) to create a significant majority and the Czechs suppressed the rest, including the Germans (3.2 million), Magyars-Hungarians (700,000) and Ruthenes (500,000) and another 300,000+ others (Poland participated in the Czech break up too, it got a nice important chunk- it was hardly Hitler’s idea to break that country up, he found many "friends" inside Czechoslovakia and outside as well... a point rarely mentioned today. Only powerful Czechs liked the situation - at the time the Slovakians had separatist movement, I have a little booklet published by them in England during the Munich crisis, - they were very unhappy... though not nearly as unhappy as the Germans, who were being oppressed in the country, - what occurred at Munich had unfortunate timing, it gave Hitler incredible credibility and power, undermined the anti-nazi movement in Germany, but it was going to happen eventually. Had Versailles been conducted to provide lasting peace as it proclaimed, - which was the last thing it created and one reason why America never accepted it - the German population and areas would have gone to Germany, as was argued at the time, and the Slovaks, Magyars and Ruthenes given their freedom to choose.. Instead the French got what they wanted, two hostile counterweights to Germany in the east, - a powerful Poland and Czechoslovakia, both of which were two of the main reasons we had a Second World War.)

I wouldn't call Bulgaria being liberated by the Red Army... Bulgaria was invaded by the soviet union, not liberated (they didn’t liberate a single person the entire war, needless to say an entire country, they exchanged one form of slavery for another.), they were not at war until the soviet union declared war on them just prior to invading the country. The soviet union was in every way as despicable a regime as nazi Germany, they were mass murderers on an equal scale as the nazis and aggressors in almost every action they took from 1917 through 1953. It is a miracle the world survived their brand of communism.
 
Some nice teories there, some small errors too.
what is on buttstock disc?

It's blank with a patina to match the rifle. It's been there a long time IMHO. I thought about trying to get it out to check the other side, but was concerned about chipping the stock by removing it to check.
 
Better no remove or damage it, the piece could be a depot piece as not stamped by unit. So the using with german real same as it could be stored in Czech country prior to US Gis were there.
 
It's blank with a patina to match the rifle. It's been there a long time IMHO. I thought about trying to get it out to check the other side, but was concerned about chipping the stock by removing it to check.

I removed one once to see what was on the other side and promptly chipped the stock. I agree with not looking. FWIW, some would pay a premium for a Vz-24 in original condition without any German modifications. These are actually harder to find than the German-modified examples. In all likelihood your rifle served in German hands during the war but never needed any repair, so remained as it was manufactured.
 

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