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The LK5 marking - A new track

All of these rifles would require accumulation, inspection, repair if necessary, and processing before issue. I believe that is what the LK5 mark represents. I do not believe it training, I believe it to be the depot / facility in occupied France which accumulated, inspected, and repaired, if necessary, those weapons to be issued to those mainly second line, occupation troops in France.

Agreed. Mine have attributes I'd expect from full-fledged HZa's, not unknown entities or mobile armorer teams rotating through a Corps area.

Stephan, one circumstance that I find persuasive is the date of capture for the Lyon area rifles. For a long time I believed that LK5 signified 'Luftgau Kommando 5.' After seeing that the abbreviations didn't accord at all, I had some doubts. Luftgau Kommando 5 was essentially a reformed Luftgau Kommando Westfrankreich, but it didn't reform until September 1944, and in Stuttgart. The rifles that Toulon44 has shared with us were captured/found in August 1944 in France, and with the LK5 stamp on them. In other words, they had the stamp before the unit was even formed...
 
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Ordnance staffs were set up in the occupied territories, there is a book CB owned that I got a few pages copied from that goes into these activities, basically they were organized to deal with captured material, the Germans set up more than a dozen in Holland, Belgium and occupied France in 1940, the report does not deal with the activities in detail but there is a map showing the higher command staffs and the branch ordnance staffs. The French higher ordnance staff were located at Colmar & Compiegne, with 7 branch staffs in all major French cities. This was how it was done in Poland also, this could possibly a marking from a ordnance staff that evolved from these occupation activities. I am sure they evolved into ordnance depots subordinate to the normal ordnance system in Germany. Further, as I remember (I couldn't find the reference with a casual search) the armistice of 1940 gave the French conditional access to many thousands of arms beyond their authorized levels, these were stored in unoccupied France and no telling their disposition post November 1942 (German invasion), but it seems likely the Germans would have confiscated these arms.

The author of the report stated that after the initial collection activities were concluded, ordnance staffs (ordnance battalion with motor column) evolved into local ordnance facilities modeled on the zones of interior, with ordnance offices and supply dumps. I am sure this evolved after November 1942 also.

My thoughts, FWIW, subject to change ;)
Edit- But in thinking about it, if it was a depot it had to have been one of decent size so why haven't we identified it? I think this mystery needs solving. Where's Scoobie Doo?

Regards,
HB
 

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Agreed. Mine have attributes I'd expect from full-fledged HZa's, not unknown entities or mobile armorer teams rotating through a Corps area.

Stephan, one circumstance that I find persuasive is the date of capture for the Lyon area rifles. For a long time I believed that LK5 signified 'Luftgau Kommando 5.' After seeing that the abbreviations didn't accord at all, I had some doubts. Luftgau Kommando 5 was essentially a reformed Luftgau Kommando Westfrankreich, but it didn't reform until September 1944, and in Stuttgart. The rifles that Toulon44 has shared with us were captured/found in August 1944 in France, and with the LK5 stamp on them. In other words, they had the stamp before the unit was even formed...

Pat, it's the same with me and for a long time I believed the "Luftgau Kommando 5" theory. I was talking to Jordan about it and I will quote myself:
""Luftgaukommando" and "Luftkreis" were not abbreviated "LK", the Germans have used other abbreviated versions"
"On August 15, 1944 started the Operation Dragoon, the Allied invasion of Southern France. The Operation Overlord was already launched on June 6, 1944 with the Normandy landings. In the end of August beginning September 1944 already all relevant areas in Southern France was liberated by American troops. Remember the LK5 marked VZ24 rifle from the user Toulon44 and this is just one example from three rifles in this area. On the left side of the stock of his rifle is written "pris aux boches pour la libération de bourgoin Sg fousse 1944". On August 23, 1944 the small town of Bourgoin, where this VZ24 rifle come from, was liberated. Bourgoin is located around 32 miles south-eastern of Lyon and Lyon was liberated on September 3, 1944. Now think about the "Luftgau Kommando 5" which was created on September 6, 1944 in Stuttgart in Germany, which is more than 390 miles away."

In my opinion the theory, that the LK5 marking refers to "Luftgau Kommando 5" or "Luftkreis 5", is totally busted.
 
Paul, it's great you mention it and we should look more into this direction. We should also check the Deutsche Waffenstillstandskommission (DWStK) which was responsible for the armistice, for disarmament and also very active in Vichy France.

Further, as I remember (I couldn't find the reference with a casual search) the armistice of 1940 gave the French conditional access to many thousands of arms beyond their authorized levels, these were stored in unoccupied France and no telling their disposition post November 1942 (German invasion), but it seems likely the Germans would have confiscated these arms.

In the book "Parades and politics at Vichy" by Robert Paxton you can find something about this topic. Here are some short excerpts:
"As soon as German forces entered the Free Zone, they began stumbling upon some of the more conspicuous weapon caches of the C.D.M. German authorities found one at Nice on 22 November 1942, followed closely by Italian discoveries at Gap in the Dauphinè, and in Corsica. The Axis authorities demanded explanation of these astonishing and unexpected finds.
At first, Premier Laval and War Minister Bridoux tried to minimize the damage by quietly restoring the arms to their regular German-controlled depots.
"

The "C.D.M." means "Camouflage de Matèriel" and was a secret initiative.
 
But in thinking about it, if it was a depot it had to have been one of decent size so why haven't we identified it? I think this mystery needs solving. Where's Scoobie Doo?

Regards,
HB[/QUOTE]

Great thread here! Craig, it’s entirely possible we don’t have it yet, for instance I recently ran across two or three depots which aren’t even listed on the 1944 HZa list but are mentioned in 1941 documents, were they shut down by then, who knows? Always plenty of mysteries to solve with all this, keep up the discussion guys one of you will have a lightbulb moment one of these days!
 
In my opinion the theory, that the LK5 marking refers to "Luftgau Kommando 5" or "Luftkreis 5", is totally busted.

I think so as well, simply by that rifle showing capture pre-dating the establishment of them, and of course the location. I think "LK5" has a connection/location in France. That would make sense.
 
Craig, then we will rule out the theory with "Luftgaukommando 5" because it doesn't make sense for several reasons. Two important theories remain, which could be plausible.

The LK markings has something to do with unknown rework facilities
I always have to think about it again, but some things give me a headache and in my opinion it speak against this theory.

- Many French and German rifles show signs of rework, but not all of them. Why should the Germans mark these original and not reworked rifles with a rework facility stamp?
- We all know the common style of depot inspection stamps. Why the Germans should suddenly switch to such a extraordinary inspection stamp?

The LK markings has something to do with auxiliary units, in this case the Milice Française accordingly their armed forces Franc-Garde
I have nothing that speaks against this theory, quite the contrary, many things speak for it. Please look at it again and comment if there is something which speaks against it.

- They served the Waffen-SS as a useful auxiliary force, from January 1944 the Milice was armed and allowed also to operate in the northern zone, not only the southern zone
- The HSSPF (Höherer SS- und Polizeiführer - Higher SS and Police Leader) was responsible for the Milice
- There was a strong connection of the SS, SiPo, SD, Gestapo to the Milice française and Franc-Garde, in joint operations they fought together with the Wehrmacht the French Resistance.
- It seems like the hotspot of these LK5 marked rifles is Southern France
- Southern France is practically the birthplace of Milice Française and Franc-Garde
- The majority of the known LK5 marked rifles was captured in Southern France, in the near of Lyon, practically the heartland with many Milice operations
- The first two units were engaged experimentally in cities, Lyon and Annecy
- The Milice was very active in the Département Hautes-Alpes and the surounding departments. The Département Hautes-Alpes is the 5th Département and the most common LK marking is LK5


LK5 rifle captured close to Major General Elster column
One K98k rifle, a byf 41, was captured close to the Major General Elster column between Châteauroux and Issoudun. There they surrendered and then they marched to Beaugency for the formal surrender. In this area the Milice Française was quite active, in Bourges they had a headquarter. In early summer 1944 Milice Française leader and men from Bourges was send to Southern France to take part in anti Resistance operations, later in summer they was send back to Bourges.

LK5 M98 rifle attic find in Bavaria
This M98 rifles marked with LK5 falls out of the pattern, it's from Bavaria and allegedly the rifle was found near Pfaffenhofen in an attic. At first I did not see any connection, only that it could come from retreating troops. Now the distance to Stuttgart was closer and at first I thought it could support again the theory with "Luftgau Kommando 5". But we know, the time frame doesn't suit at all because "Luftgau Kommando 5" was created on September 6, 1944 and the majority of LK5 rifles was already captured in August in Southern France. After reading two more books and searching in French sources, I found something very interesting.

Milice française and Franc-Garde withdraw to Germany
After the liberation by the Allies, a lot Milice française and Franc-Garde men withdraw with German troops to Germany. Around 2.000 men withdraw with their leader to North Italy and around 6.000 Milice française and Franc-Garde men withdraw and arrived Germany. Now it gets interesting, these men were gathered in Bavaria. The Germans integrated them in different units, mostly SS and one example is the 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, the well known Charlemagne. Certainly you know Henri Joseph Fenet. He was a former member of the Service d'ordre légionnaire (SOL), in November 1942 Fenet joined the Milice française and became a leader before he joined the Waffen-SS. Fenet was commander of a battalion, which he led until April 1945 and for the combat actions of the battalion during the Battle of Berlin, Fenet was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross on April 29, 1945.
Meanwhile I have read the biography of many Milice française and Franc-Garde leaders and men and almost all were sent to Bavaria, the meeting center for them was Ulm and a lot was send to the military training ground Wildflecken. From some leaders I even have the exact route to Bavaria and how they was divided in the different units, which is very interesting.

LK5 Final Map.jpg

Now back to Wolfgang's rifle which was allegedly found near Pfaffenhofen in an attic. The 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division "Götz von Berlichingen" was deployed in Southern France and also a lot French men served in the unit. On a side note, this unit was close to the same area where General Elster surrendered. In April 1945 a lot soldiers of this unit surrendered in Bavaria. On April 28, 1945 many soldiers of this unit surrendered as example in Eberstetten at various places and American soldiers shot them. Eberstetten is only 1,5 miles away from Pfaffenhofen, where Wolfgang's rifle was allegedly found in an attic.

Certainly I forgot again something important, but there are so many informations.

Regards,
Stephan
 
Stephan,
In addition to your significant contributions to this discussion, you really should be commended for taking the time and effort to convey the information in a language other than your own. That is a LOT of work. Well done!
 
I agree, an exceptional example of a collector-researcher! Stephan's observations and collection of incidents are adding up and I think he is on the verge of an answer.

Stephan,
In addition to your significant contributions to this discussion, you really should be commended for taking the time and effort to convey the information in a language other than your own. That is a LOT of work. Well done!
 
One thing, that might be important, I forgot in my last post.

Like I said, thousands of Milice française and Franc-Garde leaders and men were sent to Bavaria, the meeting center for them was Ulm. From there the majority of these men was send to the military training ground Wildflecken and the training ground Heuberg. It was similar with other auxiliaries forces, they went the same way.

The Heereszeugamt Ulm was located in Wehrkreis V (Military district 5) and we should look again in the Rework Chapter of the Volume II book. There is an excerpt of the Army Decree-Sheet published by the Army High Command from June 1941 and it's about re-barreling of Beutewaffen. Some depots in the HZa system was specialized for certain tasks and the excerpt show, Polish rifles was send to HZa Ingolstadt for barrel replacements and Czech rifles was send to HZa Ulm.

We know a lot auxiliaries forces served in Southern France and we have some LK5 marked VZ24 rifles. Why was Bavaria, in this case Ulm, the meeting center? Maybe these units were armed or at least revived with rifles at these HZa's and then send to the military training ground where new units was formed.
It's possible these rifles got the LK marking in early 1944 and was send with auxiliaries forces to Southern France. On August 23, 1944 the small town of Bourgoin was liberated and there the LK5 marked VZ24 from member Toulon44 was captured.

I don't want to say the Milice Française/Franc-Garde theory is busted like the "Luftgaukommando 5" theory, but we still have to consider other options.
 
Now I will continue with another option.

During my research I was reading some books and a lot original documents, I have looked more closely at all the military units deployed in Southern France in the relevant time frame. One unit catched my attention already in the beginning, the SS-Polizei-Regiment 19, it was involved in many battles in Southern France. The mission of the SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 was the fight against the partisans and they had a lot of experiences in these things because it was their mission already in Slovenia and Croatia. The Polizei-Regiment 19 was setup on July 9, 1942 in Veldes/Oberkrain from Reserve-Polizei-Bataillon 72, Reserve-Polizei-Bataillon 171 and Polizei-Bataillon 181. On February 24, 1943 the Polizei-Regiment 19 was renamed to SS-Polizei-Regiment 19.
Reserve-Polizei-Bataillon 72 (1st battalion SS-Polizei-Regiment 19)
Reserve-Polizei-Bataillon 171 (2nd battalion SS-Polizei-Regiment 19)
Polizei-Bataillon 181 (3rd battalion SS-Polizei-Regiment 19)

I could find a document with a order from February 19, 1944 to the Leader-staff Höh.SS-u.Pol.Fhr. in the Wehrkreis XVIII. The order says the SS-Pol.Rgt. "Todt" should get moved from France to Oberkrain and get replaced by SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 which was in Oberkrain. These regiments was transfered by train and the SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 arrived in March/April 1944 in Southern France. At first the 1st battalion SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 was based in Nizza, the 2nd battalion SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 was based in Limoges and the 3rd battalion SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 and the staff of the regiment was based in Lyon. On April 12, 1944 the 12th company of SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 was setup in Lyon. In June 1944 the 3rd battalion SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 was moved to Grenoble. In June the staff of the 2nd battalion SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 and two of their company was located in Limoges and two of their company was based in Tulle.
The Regiment was not used closed, but the Battalions and their individual companies were used in many different places for partisan control and took part in many battles. I have made a map and the black dots mark the location and battles of the SS-Polizei-Regiment 19. The two northern locations are already from their withdraw in the end of August/beginning September 1944.

Yesterday I have read the second part of the activity report of the Feldzeug-Kommando of the Stellv.Gen.Kdo. XVIII A.K., unfortunately it just cover the time frame Juli - December 1944. Nevertheless I could find some interesting informations about captured weapons and some HZa. In the activity report is also a list with all officers of the Feldzeug-Kommando of the Stellv.Gen.Kdo. XVIII A.K. and one person or rather a place catched my attention. Oberstleutnant Erich Czuber from the Feldzeug-Kommando was commanded to the Heeres-Gerätelager (Heer-Equipment-Depot) in Laak. Laak is only 24 miles away from Veldes, where the SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 was septup and maybe the SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 got their equipment and weapons from the Depot Laak.

Now we have a connection from SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 in Oberkrain, where also the Depot in Laak is located, to Southern France. But another city in the activity report of the Feldzeug-Kommando of the Stellv.Gen.Kdo. XVIII A.K. catched my attention, Landeck. Here is a excerpt from October 1944 of the activity report about Landeck:
"Weapons and equipment depot at the troop.
In the replacement and training units of the military district continues to be a tense weapon situation. In particular, it lacks handguns. The following staff were equipped:
I/XVIII Landeck
II/XVIII Graz
III/XVIII Innsbruck
IV/XVIII Tessendorf
"
Landeck is only 48 miles away from the HNZa Innsbruck.

Here is the map which I mentioned before:
Karte 2 Kopie.jpg
It's again interesting, on August 23, 1944 Bourgoin was liberated and there the LK5 marked VZ24 from member Toulon44 was captured and the two other LK5 rifles came from this area too. In this area with the cluster of LK5 marked rifles the 3rd battalion SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 was most active and the 1st battalion SS-Polizei-Regiment 19 was completely wiped not far from this area.

It is another theory and the abbreviation "LK" would make sense if you consider the former abbreviation practice of the depot system. We still have no answer and it remains exciting, I'm curious about your opinions.

Regards,
Stephan
 
Very interesting thread. Does any evidence exist for the LK3 or 4 marked rifles as to locations captured? One would assume LK1 and 2 examples would also be possible?
 
I agree, an exceptional example of a collector-researcher! Stephan's observations and collection of incidents are adding up and I think he is on the verge of an answer.

We’re very fortunate to have you and Stephan guiding us through these mazes ;) I agree with your position concerning the material facilities. I think it dovetails with Stephan’s information above. I think that once up and running they would get various arms through for repair/inspection, such as Gew.98 and K98k for the reasons identified by Stephan.
 
I'm going to disagree with this theory- the accepted method would be Lk, not LK which is what we have. Throwing theories out there is the best way to eventually figure it out.

My feeling is these all come from a repair depot, even the ones that don't show repairs. I say that due to the sheer volume of rifles with the LK marking accompanied by a 2 digit number at the wrist. But, is it possible the depot isn't German as the marking is not applied or formatted in German style? Also, no keel number added as is German doctrine, but blued bolts which is.

Keep digging, you have narrowed down the area of operations, you may have already hit the target but not know it yet.
 
Stan, personally I have only seen LK5 marked rifles and a picture of a rifle with LK3 marking. I can't rule out the existence, but I think if they would exist, we would certainly have already discovered a example. Hopefully French collectors will also participate in the research, because of the language skills the research is much easier for them. I hope we get more data on the capture/find locations of these LK marked rifles.


I have translated a Army High Command directive from December 10, 1943. It's not an answer, but in my opinion a important information.


Directive OKH/Gen.Qu. Az. 504 b (Qu.3/W u. G.2) December 10, 1943

The provision of weapons for soldiers in case of transfers and relocation.

According to directive OKH/Gen.Qu. Az. 504 b (Qu.3/W u. G.2) of December 10, 1943, only the following weapons may be given for transfers and relocation to other front sections:

To the East - only weapons that shoot German ammunition.

To the West - German weapons, 7,5mm rifles (f) French, 8mm rifles (f) French.

To the Supreme Command of Southwest - German weapons, 6,5mm rifles (i) Italian, 7,9mm rifles (i) Italian.

To the Supreme Command of Southeast - German weapons, 7,5mm rifles (f) French, 7,7mm rifles (e) British, 7,9mm rifles (j) Yugoslav.

To Denmark - Weapons that shoot German ammunition.

To Norway - German weapons, 6,5mm rifles (n) Norwegian, 8mm carbines (n) Norwegian.

In the case of transfers of individual soldiers, German weapons must always be exchanged to the foreign weapons authorized for the new area of deployment - if available in the army sector - before departure.


The 7,5mm rifles (f) French for Supreme Command of Southeast are interesting. In the Balkans I would have expected less use of French weapons.

Regards,
Stephan
 
The 7,5mm rifles (f) French for Supreme Command of Southeast are interesting. In the Balkans I would have expected less use of French weapons.

Regards,
Stephan

Didn’t the Polish use French rifles after ww1? Maybe there was stocks of ammunition?


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I'm going to disagree with this theory- the accepted method would be Lk, not LK which is what we have. Throwing theories out there is the best way to eventually figure it out.

My feeling is these all come from a repair depot, even the ones that don't show repairs. I say that due to the sheer volume of rifles with the LK marking accompanied by a 2 digit number at the wrist. But, is it possible the depot isn't German as the marking is not applied or formatted in German style? Also, no keel number added as is German doctrine, but blued bolts which is.

Keep digging, you have narrowed down the area of operations, you may have already hit the target but not know it yet.

Thank you very much Mike and it's great you mention the "LK" and "Lk" problem, in addition the other deviation. Maybe the marking deviations have something to do with the foreign location of the depot. In general the pressure during this time frame could influence the marking practice?

You are right, throwing theories out is the best way to eventually figure it out and I thought the same, I may have already hit the target but not know it yet.
 
Didn’t the Polish use French rifles after ww1? Maybe there was stocks of ammunition?

I'm not sure, I just know about the "Blue Army", the Polish military contingent which was created in France.

The German Army captured in general a lot of French rifles and ammunition during the Battle of France in 1940 and also later they got again many weapons and ammunition when they occupied Southern France. Even on January 14, 1945 when the Russian Army was already knocking on the door, the Posen Depot still had a lot of French ammunition in storage. From 8mm they had in Posen 60,219 rounds and in 7,5mm they had 324,952 rounds.
 
But, is it possible the depot isn't German as the marking is not applied or formatted in German style? Also, no keel number added as is German doctrine, but blued bolts which is.

The other elements that accompany the LK marking, such as the added one or two digit number stamped into the stock, blued bolts, numbered smaller components not numbered in original production, all sound very much like German depot treatment to me. Personally, I'd still bet on this marking being German. Just my opinion, though.

Didn’t the Polish use French rifles after ww1? Maybe there was stocks of ammunition?

The Poles acquired several thousands of French rifles and carbines through sales following WWI. There's a whole other story waiting to be told regarding German capture and use of those, but for now the easy way to distinguish them is that the French didn't start using 7.5mm cartridges until after Poland had acquired their French small arms. No Polish used French arms should be 'N' marked on the barrel or receiver, as we see on weapons processed by the French during the 1930s.

Stephan, does that 10 December 1943 order specify Italian rifles in 7,9mm? That's very strange, as it should be 6.5mm, and Krieghoff didn't turn out any of their conversions until early (January-March) 1945.

Regarding 7.7mm (Enfield) and 7.5mm French use in the SE European Command Area, I've attached two photos of Serbian border police assigned to the Albanian border that are shown using a No.1 Mk.III Enfield and a MAS 1936 respectively. They functioned as a collaborative element of the German occupation, and were apparently armed by the Germans for this role.

Keep up the good work Stephan, this is an exciting process! :thumbsup:

Best,
Pat
 

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Personally, I'd still bet on this marking being German. Just my opinion, though.

I think the same and maybe the depot was in an occupied country.

Stephan, does that 10 December 1943 order specify Italian rifles in 7,9mm? That's very strange, as it should be 6.5mm, and Krieghoff didn't turn out any of their conversions until early (January-March) 1945.

Yes, it specify Italian rifles in 6,5mm and 7,9mm. I forgot to mention it and I'm glad you was pointing 7,9mm out.

Thank you very much for the photos! Because of the order and your photos, I have again to think about the SS-Polizei-Regiment 19. So it's not that unlikely they used French rifles as well and was already equipped in Slovenia.

Regards,
Stephan
 

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