First Imperial Rifle - 1917 Erfurt Kar98a. Some Questions.

Good morning,

I have been searching for an Imperial Gew98 rifle for several years now, and being in Canada, it hasn't been easy. Although this isn't 100% what I was originally after (obviously), given how difficult Imperial stuff in to find up here and what I believe to be a good price I decided to jump on it, at least until something else comes along. At first look, it appears to be a matching 1917 Erfurt Kar98a.

I have done a quick strip of the bolt and it has the last two digits of the serial number on every piece I can find with a number. The stock has the serial number stamped on the underside of the stock and the stacking hook, front sight, screws, bolt assembly (handle/firing pin/cocking piece/extractor, receiver & floor plate assembly. When I first received the rifle it had lots of hardened grease, gunk and dried mud inside the bolt and chamber area. After a light oil the action is very smooth and the bore is in surprisingly beautiful shape. I have not had the carbine out of the stock yet.

The carbine also came with a sling (Gew98 I've been told?) and a muzzle cover.

The stock was damaged long ago by the looks of it, and is cracked / repaired at the wrist. I guess there is no way to tell when this was done, but it certainly has been like this for a long time based on the colouring of the wood and the repair. I intended to shoot the carbine originally, though now am having second thoughts. Is this a "duffle cut" or just some basic repair that could have been done post war?

A few questions for the experts:

1. Does the rifle appear to be correct and not post-war reworked? I can take more photos of anything specific.

2. Do any of the serial numbers look suspect? Being that this is my first Imperial firearm, I am unsure of smaller nuances in the serial numbers. I know that humped Kar98k, P08s etc... are unfortunately getting more common, which pretty much has me concerned when it comes to German stuff. I have a 1939 G29/40 which is mismatched, and I haven't been fortunate enough to come across a potentially "matching" rifle before so this is new to me.

3. What do the acceptance stamps on the right side of the receiver and stock indicate? Is there any way to determine property / ownership? I guess what I am asking here is does this look like a "proper" WW1 Kar98a?

4. I believe after some reading that the serial number prefix is "F", though the script is hard to make out. Is there a way to determine potential month of production?

Overall I am very happy with this handy little carbine so far, even with the potentially sketchy stock repair.





Thanks for all your help! I have been reading here for a long time out of interest but this is my first "jump" into Imperial things.

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No signs of any Post War work done to this carbine. It looks 100% original and IMO was a bringback by a Canada vet from the Great War. The cracks on the right side of your buttstock on your Kar98a I have seen many times on the later made 1917-1918 made stocks. That wood was more of substitute wood and was not as strong as the walnut stocks were. Now the repair where the buttstock cracked around the trigger guard area that is probably the most common break I have seen with Mauser rifles. It usually happens with the rifle is dropped hard on the buttstock and it causes the stock to break or the wood to crack. Who knows when the Canada vet shipped it home it may have been damaged in the process.

Still I like it to tell you the truth finding an original Kar98a in it's Imperial trim is tough. So many were updated in the interwar period and so many were turned into sporters by shooters and the vets who brought them home. They were very popular to use for hunting. Anyway I think it looks good for being 101 year old Fraulein!

Warrior1354 said:

No signs of any Post War work done to this carbine. It looks 100% original and IMO was a bringback by a Canada vet from the Great War. The cracks on the right side of your buttstock on your Kar98a I have seen many times on the later made 1917-1918 made stocks. That wood was more of substitute wood and was not as strong as the walnut stocks were. Now the repair where the buttstock cracked around the trigger guard area that is probably the most common break I have seen with Mauser rifles. It usually happens with the rifle is dropped hard on the buttstock and it causes the stock to break or the wood to crack. Who knows when the Canada vet shipped it home it may have been damaged in the process.

Still I like it to tell you the truth finding an original Kar98a in it's Imperial trim is tough. So many were updated in the interwar period and so many were turned into sporters by shooters and the vets who brought them home. They were very popular to use for hunting. Anyway I think it looks good for being 101 year old Fraulein!

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Thank for your reply! I’m happy to hear that it looks proper and not messed with. I am very happy to be it’s current caretaker!

It's a z-block, right in all respects so far as shown. I do not have a lot of time at the moment, but it looks good an no obvious postwar service. Which means it probably didn't stay in Germany. Germans would have blued the bolt and follower had it stayed in service. You could check to see if the follower stops the bolt on empty, if Imperial it shouldn't, though some were notched state-side by sportsmen. Really a weird thing the German designers overlooked, stopping the bolt on empty seems a obvious and easy feature to include...

Loewe said:

It's a z-block, right in all respects so far as shown. I do not have a lot of time at the moment, but it looks good an no obvious postwar service. Which means it probably didn't stay in Germany. Germans would have blued the bolt and follower had it stayed in service. You could check to see if the follower stops the bolt on empty, if Imperial it shouldn't, though some were notched state-side by sportsmen. Really a weird thing the German designers overlooked, stopping the bolt on empty seems a obvious and easy feature to include...

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Hi Loewe,

Thanks for the reply! The bolt does NOT stop on empty like my later G29/40 or WW2 Kar98k rifles. So far this is good news It seems.

Z block would mean late 1917 no?

Thanks!
Matt

Very nice rifle. And the sling is not to a Gew 98. It may also be original to the rifle. Can you post more pics of it?

Gringo said:

Very nice rifle. And the sling is not to a Gew 98. It may also be original to the rifle. Can you post more pics of it?

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Hi Gringo!

I just took a few pictures of the sling. I couldn't find any stamps or markings, but it definitely it old either way. Looks to have been on the carbine for a while but I guess that doesn't mean much given how old the carbine is.



Thanks for all the help!

You would think so? But actually its about mid-year, Erfurt went to the ww-block in 1917. Early in 1917 Germany suffered severe labor unrest, hit the industrial areas worse, Berlin especially, shut down DWM and Spandau for a few days (the Army broke the strike by removing deferments from striking men, you aren't at work, you get drafted...); it could have easily hit Erfurt and the industrial regions in nearby Saxony, though didn't make the foreign press at the time (other than Berlin where it received considerable coverage - and glee in the American press, the US had just entered the war - stupidly...). So, the ranges can't be a simple division based upon totals and months, but generally this rifle would have been mid-year.

The sling could be original, looks like it might be, does it have 9 adjustment holes? Show the m-buckle and keeper better. A nice sling is over $100 value, more if condition is good.

ArtyMan said:

Z block would mean late 1917 no?

Thanks!
Matt

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Loewe said:

You would think so? But actually its about mid-year, Erfurt went to the ww-block in 1917. Early in 1917 Germany suffered severe labor unrest, hit the industrial areas worse, Berlin especially, shut down DWM and Spandau for a few days (the Army broke the strike by removing deferments from striking men, you aren't at work, you get drafted...); it could have easily hit Erfurt and the industrial regions in nearby Saxony, though didn't make the foreign press at the time (other than Berlin where it received considerable coverage - and glee in the American press, the US had just entered the war - stupidly...). So, the ranges can't be a simple division based upon totals and months, but generally this rifle would have been mid-year.

The sling could be original, looks like it might be, does it have 9 adjustment holes? Show the m-buckle and keeper better. A nice sling is over $100 value, more if condition is good.

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Hi Loewe,

Thanks for the reply. The sling has 9 adjustment holes. I’ll upload some pictures this afternoon.

Operating under the assumption that this carbine may be a Canadian Army bring back, I suspect it’s almost certainly “too late” for the CEF’s campaign at Vimy Ridge in April though “in time” for Hill 70 and Lens, Passchendaele, Cambrai or our “Hundred Days” in 1918. Though it’s all speculation without proof of course, being recently retired from the Canadian Army myself makes this carbine that much more interesting to me given it’s possible history. I suppose it could have also been picked up in a poker game or traded for smokes and hooch like so many other things during wartime.

I suppose without unit markings there is no way to estimate what unit or branch this was issued to? How long did it take for weapons to get from the factory to forward units? I guess that depends on a million and one factors eh?

I had initially planned to hold onto this as a placeholder until a Gew98 came along, though the more I read and learn the less likely that seems!

Thanks again to everyone for your assistance!

Unit markings are rare on wartime rifles, though more common with the 98a than G98. No way to tell where it came from unless you have some idea of its past, but the Canadians would have had plenty of opportunities to encounter one.. bringing them back might have been more of a problem for a Canadian than for an American, - plus the US Army brought back 80,000 German rifles with them, late in the mid-1920's dispersed to the states (based upon the numbers of men each state contributed... I once saw a auction list from Massachusetts offering loads of this material, some states sold it others gave it to institutions, many of our rifles probably came from these dispersals, not traditional bringbacks.)

If it passed through a depot it would be marked on the buttplate, so too a unit marking, - which is very rarely seen. Other than that, you could look at the sling, rarely they are unit marked, mostly pre-war, I use to own a nice one that had a faint unit marking near the m-buckle, artillery I believe, but again a long shot to say the least.

In 1917 the 98a was in demand, the G98 less so, they had a glut of sorts with the G98 and depots were full of them, the 98a was taking a great importance due to doctrinal changes, which is why G98 production deminishes in 1917 and 98a increases as the war reaches it final phases. I doubt 98a's were stored as long as a G98 by 1917, though it is all guessing.

Loewe said:

Unit markings are rare on wartime rifles, though more common with the 98a than G98. No way to tell where it came from unless you have some idea of its past, but the Canadians would have had plenty of opportunities to encounter one.. bringing them back might have been more of a problem for a Canadian than for an American, - plus the US Army brought back 80,000 German rifles with them, late in the mid-1920's dispersed to the states (based upon the numbers of men each state contributed... I once saw a auction list from Massachusetts offering loads of this material, some states sold it others gave it to institutions, many of our rifles probably came from these dispersals, not traditional bringbacks.)

If it passed through a depot it would be marked on the buttplate, so too a unit marking, - which is very rarely seen. Other than that, you could look at the sling, rarely they are unit marked, mostly pre-war, I use to own a nice one that had a faint unit marking near the m-buckle, artillery I believe, but again a long shot to say the least.

In 1917 the 98a was in demand, the G98 less so, they had a glut of sorts with the G98 and depots were full of them, the 98a was taking a great importance due to doctrinal changes, which is why G98 production deminishes in 1917 and 98a increases as the war reaches it final phases. I doubt 98a's were stored as long as a G98 by 1917, though it is all guessing.

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Hi Loewe,

Attached are better pictures of the sling. Unfortunately no stamps or marks that I can see. I will try and get it out of the stock tomorrow to see if things are totally matching. I intend to pick up a 98/05 bayonet next, though they sure aren't cheap!



Thanks again for all the help

Looks 98a to me, sometimes markings exist on the keeper, by the stud, but they rarely reveal much. Mfg markings are rare, though this is primarily because of wear and age (probably), most were probably mfg marked but are too faint or worn to see today. Republican era slings are more likely to reveal mfg markings, sometimes dates too. The sling when measured should be around 50 inches, typically 53-58 due to stretching, but I have seen them slightly under 50 inches too.

Thanks for all the info

Agreed. Sling looks like an original, although there were same type slings made post WWI and pre-WWII. Often they will have police markings on them, but the 98a was widely used between the wars and well into WWII. Original slings are difficult to find and worth a couple of hundred bucks alone in decent condition (when you can find them).

Gringo said:

Agreed. Sling looks like an original, although there were same type slings made post WWI and pre-WWII. Often they will have police markings on them, but the 98a was widely used between the wars and well into WWII. Original slings are difficult to find and worth a couple of hundred bucks alone in decent condition (when you can find them).

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Thanks for the info! I was intending to shoot this originally though now given the stock condition and nature of it being matched I’m going to hold off and try and find a bolt mismatch or otherwise Gew98