243/1939 - Depot reworked or not

[whcoyote]

I’d like for you to look at this rifle and answer a question. Comments are also welcome,

It is a code 243/1939 Mauser Borgiswalde, S/N 4721b, all matching except for the stock, and associated parts. The stock was originally on a 243/1940 rifle, S/N 2611e. One can tell that by the stock date, the crossed-out previous S/N and the inspector’s numbers on the stock. It had to be on a 1940 rifle because a stock date of 2-47-39 is too late in the year for it to have been put on a 1939 e-block rifle. The stock, butt plate, recoil lug and bayonet mount all match each other. The bands do not match. They have not been re-numbered, nor has the butt plate. The stock has had its original S/N X’ed out everywhere except in the handguard. No attempt was made to hide the original numbers on any of the replacement parts so, IMO it is an honest parts-replacement affair.

The photos of the rifle’s metal speak for themselves.

Notice the photo of the ball of the stock, which has been stamped “3” above a triangle (maybe arrow head) and below that a more faint circle over a square which have some unreadable content in them.

The question is, in your opinion(s), is it possible that this rifle was repaired and restocked at a repair depot (battalion, regimental or higher level) somewhere, or is it a post-war fix?

Let me know if you need more photos.

 

[THunter]

In my opinion those serial numbers on the stock are fake. The fonts are way off and that b block stamp isn’t even close. Usually armorers didn’t even bother stamping the letter block. I’m comfortable saying that’s a post war hump job

 

[RyanE]

Stock is bad. They used a very common modern die set.

 

[whcoyote]

TH:
I understand your opinion. Don’t agree on “ hump job” - too obvious.
Any idea what the “3/ triangle” means?
Appreciate your comment.

 

[mrfarb]

Not period done in any case.

 

[mauser99]

believe what you are being told.. the stamp set is common northern tool type crap. It was probably done recently by someone who had a decent knowledge of depot cancelling numbers ect..

 

[RyanE]

After looking a little closer, it looks like whoever did this was smart and used a depot stock for his fake. Wrist inspections looks like Mainz.

 

[Bigdibbs88]

Hump job is an accurate description on the stock numbers. As mentioned common modern fonts

 

[DaveDavis]

That 7 reeks to high heaven

 

[nirvana]

TH:
I understand your opinion. Don’t agree on “ hump job” - too obvious.
Any idea what the “3/ triangle” means?
Appreciate your comment.

Sometimes obvious fakes are just that: obvious fakes.

Whenever I hear “no faker would do that, it’s too stupid and too obvious” I sort of know where the conversation will be going, usually snarky indignant replies about “so-called experts” coupled with an absolute refusal to hear contradictory opinions. Please don’t go there. Accept that it’s bad. It’s not a personal attack.

 

[whcoyote]

I have had this rifle for about 15 years. I knew it was a mismatched stock and bands when I bought it. But, the price was right and it has a perfect bore. I could not afford an all-matching rifle then, barely even now. So I had a good shooter.
I read the section in Vol. 2 on depot reworks. I noticed the stamping on the ball of the stock. So, I asked the question - that’s all.
I don’t mind contradictory opinions. What I do mind is snarky remarks that offer no useful information.
Thank you all for your comments. I accept them as honest opinions.
Perhaps we need an “official” definition of the term “humped”. How about, “A conscious effort to make a rifle appear to be something it is not, for the end purpose of deceiving a buyer in order to make a profit”?
I have been a member of the forum for about 15 years +/- (can’t remember exactly when I joined). I have been away for over a decade. It is good to be back.

 

[pzjgr]

I would not limit "humped" to make a rifle appear to be something it's not for the end purpose of making a profit...humped is an effort to fake something on a rifle to make it appear as something it is not, period.

People have been adding markings or swapping parts for a long time to "correct" a rifle, either based on guesses or possibly faulty incomplete data (such as data sheets in BOTW). Sometimes it was just a collector fixing up his rifle as he saw fit to make it more correct, and then down the line it is sold. Further down the line it may be sold as "correct" at a "correct" price. In any case faked is humped regardless of intent.

Bottom line, the rifle in question is not a wartime Depot refurb. It was not done wartime by the Germans. Whether it was done by a post war foreign country, or someone trying to correct their gun for whatever reason can't be said for sure. Bottom line its a post war modification.

 

[nirvana]

I think “humped” involves serious alterations, like stamping numbers/proofs or welding or refinishing - all done with the intent to mislead and sell for more money. I think the motivation is important. How many people fake rifles just to collect them and not for resale? I suspect it’s a small number.

“Dinked with” to me is a minor effort to mess with something, weather it’s bleaching a stock or over polishing parts that should be in the white. So bad cleaning to make something appear more pretty. This is something a collector does for himself to have a shiny gun, resale being second.

Interesting discussion. Had never thought about it.

 

[Loewe]

I can't find the direct link but some context (while I am internet challenged I thought this forum was searchable from the beginning but maybe this was a gunboards thread?)

06-29-2009, 11:42 PM
whcoyote
Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 13

Buying 1939, Code 243 K98k



Hi Folks:
I am just new to this forum and would like some input from any of you who care to comment.
I have the opportunity to purchase a very nice 1939, Code 243 K98k rifle. It has a laminated stock flat buttplate and all milled hardware with a perfect bore. It has all-matching serial numbers, except for two which I will discuss, and all correct abnahmestempels (Acceptance stamps). It has Weimar firing proofs on the barrel and receiver and Third Reich firing proof on the bolt handle.
The two parts that don't match are:
1. The stock. The stock has a serial number which is X-ed out and the serial number of the present receiver/barrel stamped into the stock just above the X-ed out number. Each digit of the old number has a individual "X" stamped over it - done very carefully and neatly. The stock has the correct acceptance stamps (Eagle/26) for the manufacturer and all other stamps that would be expected for this rifle - including the correct acc. stamp in both stock discs, Wehrmacht property mark, etc. The acceptance stamps match the manufacturer of the receiver/barrel (Eagle/26). My thought is that this is a replacement stock, originally issued with another rifle and removed from it for some reason and applied to this rifle by either a field armorer or at the factory to which it was returned for repairs.
2. Upper band. Has the serial number of another rifle on it, but each individual digit of the old serial number X-ed out in the same fashion as the stock. No new serial number applied to the band. Acceptance stamp on the band is from Mauser-Oberndorf.
The rifle is in approximately 92-95% condition - wood and metal, with a superb bore and healthy action. Finish and wear on the entire rifle is even and matching - as if the replacement parts have been on the rifle for a long time in service.
I am a rookie collector of K98ks and would like to have this rifle, but don't know if I should trust my instincts about the X-ed out numbers. If these are the result of field or factory repairs made during the Third Reich era, I have no problems. Not too many Code 243s were made.
The seller wants $1100 for it. If everything matched perfectly, this would be a great price for a very fine rifle.
Comments please.
Best regards,
Bob Grimsley


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#2 06-29-2009, 11:56 PM
pzjgr
Senior Member Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 954





I don't know, but that is a lot of scratch for a rifle with a couple of questionable parts, especially the two that would need replacing if duffle cut or sportered. For that kind of money I would want to take some good pics and post them here....

The X-ed out numbers sound like an easy way to "explain" a couple of properly marked replacement parts replaced by someone at a later time.....If truly a "field" replacement, its doubtful an armorer would have used "correctly" WaA stock and band, unless it was shear dumb luck. And I don't know if the factory would bother with x-ing out and restamping, especially in 1939....

But some of the other guys might know different, those are just my hypotheses....


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#3 06-30-2009, 02:15 AM
Hambone
Moderator Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 4,765





Welcome WH,
Sounds interesting. Pics would really be necessary to make a call. Such repair and replacement of stock parts is something that occurred. The method of asterisking out old numbers occurred. Would need to see the piece. That price strikes me as rather high for such a piece that is not unquestionably period reworked/repaired. Most of those that are more accepted as legitimate have other indicia of repair/rework such as depot/facility stampings, etc.,
Regards,
Hambone


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#4 07-02-2009, 04:42 PM
whcoyote
Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 13





Hambone - you posted, "other indicia of repair/rework such as depot/facility stampings, etc.,".
The only K98k references I have are by Law and he doesn't address this issue. Can you give me some info on proper "indicia"? (I like that word - doesn't get used much).
Many thanks,
Bob[/QUOTE]


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#5 07-02-2009, 04:48 PM
Hambone
Moderator Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 4,765





Quote:
Originally Posted by whcoyote
Hambone - you posted, "other indicia of repair/rework such as depot/facility stampings, etc.,".
The only K98k references I have are by Law and he doesn't address this issue. Can you give me some info on proper "indicia"? (I like that word - doesn't get used much).
Many thanks,
Bob

[/QUOTE]

Be wary of placing too much emphasis on BOTW WH. Look for a new barrel, with a .02 stamp on the collar and different type serialling, though the same number, other replaced parts, lined out or stamped over and renumbered, and depot/facility markings. Go check our pic sticky thread for the repair / rework markings such as Kru 1, Su, Mg, etc.
regards,
Hambone


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#6 07-03-2009, 03:30 AM
whcoyote
Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 13





I suppose you mean by BOTW and WH to be bottom wood and wood handguard.

The only two parts that I think are replacements are the stock (original S/N Xed out and new S/N applid over it) and the upper band (old S/N Xed out and no new S/N applied) As near as I can tell, each and every other part of the rifle is original and matching. S/Ns on the barrel and receiver match - font & size match and both have Weimar proofs made with the same stamp. No other S/Ns marked out or lined through. All acceptance stamps are correct and where they should be.

By ".02 stamp on the collar", do you mean a 0.2mm stamp on the barrel collar where the bore diameter stamp is also applied? What would this mean and what might it look like?

I can't find the Sticky Thread for the "repair / rework markings such as Kru 1, Su, Mg, etc". Can you give me the thread URL , or whatever, for this, please?

Many thanks,
Bob Grimsley


Last edited by whcoyote; 07-03-2009 at 03:43 AM.


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#7 07-03-2009, 03:41 AM
pzjgr
Senior Member Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 954





Quote:
Originally Posted by whcoyote
I suppose you mean by BOTW and WH to be bottom wood and wood handguard.

The only two parts that I think are replacements are the stock (original S/N Xed out and new S/N applid over it) and the upper band (old S/N Xed out and no new S/N applied) As near as I can tell, each and every other part of the rifle is original and matching. S/Ns on the barrel and receiver match - will check for font and size, but I think they are correct. No other S/Ns marked out or lined through. All acceptance stamps are correct and where they should be.

By ".02 stamp on the collar", do you mean a 0.2mm stamp on the barrel collar where the bore diameter stamp is also applied? What would this mean and what might it look like?

Many thanks,
Bob Grimsley



No, BOTW is "Backbone of the Wehrmacht" and WH is short for you, "WH"coyote.....what Ham is saying is that BOTW while good for a guide, is riddled with mistakes, and suffers from drawing its data from a very limited pool of rifles. That is why the research that goes on here in the stickies, etc, is important, it greatly broadens the knowledge base on the 98k. Several members here are writing more correct and up to date books, which hopefully will be coming out sometime soon....

The 02 stamp would be applied on the barrel collar near the diameter stamp (if it has one), it is simply a stamp that looks exactly like that "02", it shows the barrel is a replacement barrel, I would guess designating the second barrel for that rifle....


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#8 Yesterday, 12:08 AM
whcoyote
Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 13





pzjgr:
The barrel is original - serial numbered in the same font and size as the receiver with the same dies. Both bear Weimar firing proofs made with the same die.
The S/N is 4721b - the 24,719th rifle made at Borsigwalde in 1939 (the way I count is there are 9999 rifles in each suffix group - a NS group, an "a" group and then the "b", etc.
The barrel has a band of markings around it just in front of the collar which reads "28639Dö, then two acceptance stamps - Stick Eagle/26". I assume that part of this identifies a barrel finished in 1938, which squares with the acceptance stamp on the front sight base which is Eagle/280 - which is the correct inspection stamp number for 1938 at Borsigwalde.
Can someone square me away on this, please? I'd like to know the significance of this mark.
The stock is a mismatch to the rifle, but appears to be a Nazi rework. It is all matching within itself - butt plate, wood and bayonet lug. The previous number - now Xed out in all locations except the bayonet lug - is 2611B (note the cap) and has been replaced with a stamping in the wood to match the rifle - 4721 - leaving the B from the previous number as correct. This restamping was done a long time ago. In front of the pistol grip is a Nazi Eagle/WaA26, which appears stronger and newer than all the other stock stampings except for the serial numbers.

The bands are a mismatch also. If this is a Nazi rework, I assume the stock and some funiture was beyond repair and serviceable parts used to replace them.

Everything else on the rifle is a strict match - including the action screws and the action screw lock screws. Every single part on the rifle, including the replacements, bear the correct acceptance stamp - 26 - except for the front sight base as explained above.

Still soliciting comments - thanks,
Bob


Last edited by whcoyote; Yesterday at 12:12 AM.


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#9 Yesterday, 03:06 PM
mauser99
Senior Member Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 223

s243/1939



Hey,w.h.c. If you have to defend it that much the gun is bogus..I just sold on the wts-board a s/243 1938 all matching with a bad bore for 725.00 shipped. the condition was fair.So my advise to you is wait..There will be others. I know of a s/243 1937 all matching with a sanded stock that can be had for around 1200.00, I also have bnz-43 thats a factory m.m. I.m.h.o. that i'm selling. So contact me via e-mail.Through the boards if you are interested. Also check the add boards here,There have been some good deals lately on some common rifle's. So don't get tied down with that dud!!


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#10 Yesterday, 06:26 PM
SimsonSuhl
Senior Member Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Snowflake AZ
Posts: 1,258





"286 39 Dö" means the barrel blank "lot" was from 1939, the barrel could have been made anytime after that (no way to tell except by the host rifle)- why would "39" mean 1938? Did you mean to write "286 38 Dö"? (this actually fits better with rifles on file in the a-e block)

Regarding the stock, - unless you find a legit depot marking (these are faked) you won't be able to authenticate it (look at the wrist, buttplate, takedown disc, comb, buttstock side), the stock should be marked if it went through a depot (imo); if it isn't marked flip a coin.. much depends on how it was done (seems a lot of "x" out for a field level & are you saying the bayo lug has a full serial including uppercase suffix?); as to rework at a manufacturer, wasn't done in WWII, (was done in Imperial era, over 400,000 at Amberg alone- remember this offhand because I just wrote a piece on Amberg..) so any similarities in acceptance on the stock is coincidence (they used a similarly acceptance stock for the restocking).

Anyway, $1100 could be used in better ways than this rifle, which is basically enough for a matching/original rifle. Don’t get me wrong, my favorite rifles are reworks, I have a couple (Weimar) and they are pretty cool, but “reworks” are generally devalued to original, plus the easiest way to hump a rifle is to do the “rework” theme.

I would pass, as best case is you have a depot re-stock, worse a humper and either way it’s not worth $1100 for a common maker like this. (imo of course)



Quote:
Originally Posted by whcoyote
The barrel has a band of markings around it just in front of the collar which reads "28639Dö, then two acceptance stamps - Stick Eagle/26". I assume that part of this identifies a barrel finished in 1938...The stock is a mismatch to the rifle, but appears to be a Nazi rework. It is all matching within itself - butt plate, wood and bayonet lug. The previous number - now Xed out in all locations except the bayonet lug - is 2611B (note the cap) and has been replaced with a stamping in the wood to match the rifle - 4721 - leaving the B from the previous number as correct. This restamping was done a long time ago. In front of the pistol grip is a Nazi Eagle/WaA26, which appears stronger and newer than all the other stock stampings except for the serial numbers... Still soliciting comments - thanks,
Bob

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#11 Today, 12:26 AM
whcoyote
Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 13





Latest findings on this rifle:
First, the barel stampings are 286 38 Dö. You are correct - my mistake. Any meaning to the Dö?

I have disassembled the rifle and discovered further. The stock, butt plate, bayonet lug and handguard all came from rifle no. 2611b. The original numbers on the inside of the stock and handguard have been Xed out and the number of the present rifle has been stamped into both pieces in the barrel channels in line with the old stock number. The old (original) stock number has been stamped into the underside of the buttstock immediately aft of the wrist, then Xed out and the new number applied above it. This work appears to have been done a long time ago. The buttplate has the original number Xed out and no new number applied. The bayonet lug has only the last two digits of the original stock number stamped in the front face. It has not been Xed out. The new numbers were applied with dies having digits shaped in the traditional German font. Original Acceptance stamps on the buttplate, bayonet lug, stock, stock discs are all Eagle/26 - Mauser Borsigwalde.

On the underside of the stock, in the wrist (or handgrip) is a clear distinct stamping of a Nazi Eagle with swastika/WaA26 - the number assigned to the Mauser Borgiswalde Waffenamp Inspector. Just below this is the number "3" above what appears to be an "A". These appear to have been made about the time of the number restamping.

There are other stampings on the stock (Army property stamp, etc.) but older and not as distinct.

If someone was tryig to hump (think that is the same as "boost" or fake) this rifle, why would they go to the trouble of stamping out the numbers inside the stock & HG, stamping in the new numbers there and then stamping the old number on the outside, Xing it out and stamping the new number above it?

I'm not trying to defend this rifle. If it is a legit Nazi rework I may buy it. If not - it gets passed - no problems. It's a very decent piece. I'm only trying to avoid a mistake. I am new at these rifles and want to learn, but not pay an expensive tuition.

Many thanks for your inputs. Continue to let me know what you think.
Bob


Last edited by whcoyote; Today at 12:32 AM.


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#12 Today, 01:14 AM
SimsonSuhl
Senior Member Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Snowflake AZ
Posts: 1,259





Sächsische Gußstahlwerke Döhlen AG, they made lots of blanks for assemblers to finish, Sauer one of the largest end-users, they also supplied MG barrel blanks.

e/26 is not assigned to Borsigwalde, it was one of a couple assigned to Berlin as a whole.. many firms use e/26, several involved in rifle manufacture.

Well I can think of about 500 reasons why someone might boost (hump) the stock in this case- max a m/m stock is $600, this one is $1100?

I have no interest in pissing on your deal, maybe it’s ok? You'd have to do pics to even hazard a guess? My main point is even if legit $1100 is high for a rework of a common maker/date.. but go for it if you want, at least it sounds "collectable" within the "German" rifle collecting theme- that can’t be said of many rifles that get discussed here. (imo)
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[mauser202]

 

[biggymu]

I can't find the direct link but some context (while I am internet challenged I thought this forum was searchable from the beginning but maybe this was a gunboards thread?)

Déjà vu. History does indeed repeat itself. Many of the same posters even. And all these years later the rifle is still bad…

 

[whcoyote]

Yes, all these years later the rifle is still bad. Would one expect it to get better?

Apparently I posted the thread, Loewe found, back in 2009 and forgot about it…..else I wouldn’t have bothered you folks about it again. Those exchanges sound familiar.

Humped or not, the rifle is still here and it’s going to stay here. I have shot it - no complaints. Heck, even ugly people need to go out and play some.

 

[Loewe]

View attachment 388645

Remove the cigarette and it is accurate! Maybe a joint 20 years ago....

 

[Loewe]

Yes, all these years later the rifle is still bad. Would one expect it to get better?

Apparently I posted the thread, Loewe found, back in 2009 and forgot about it…..else I wouldn’t have bothered you folks about it again. Those exchanges sound familiar.

Humped or not, the rifle is still here and it’s going to stay here. I have shot it - no complaints. Heck, even ugly people need to go out and play some.

It wasn't meant to reveal a secret, embarrass or make news, just add context. Back then it was saved because no pictures were provided and it was saved for context for the use of the report in trends. (basis for it's inclusion)

While I have saved hundreds, if not a few thousands or more, of such glimpses, they were simply a means to trend observations,, or rarely to track a humper or two, the latter very rarely as such is akin to tracking crooked politicians... far more easy and a lot less work is trending existence of the few that are honest.

** I started this when I started trending in the mid-late 90's. Back when Gun & Knife forum was "it" (when German based WMO forum was "demilitarized"), - when Gunboards was only Mausers & Mosins, mid-1990's to late 1990's.

 

[whcoyote]

I was not concerned about embarrassment or revealing secrets. The thread has been honest and open. I’m getting older and am realizing that I forget stuff. I truly had forgotten I had previously posted about it.
That made me question what else I had posted about that I had forgotten. I figured if you knew how to find old threads like that, perhaps you could tell me how. So I asked.
I may have figured it out - not sure yet.
Thanks for the reply.