Third Party Press

VZ23 German rework?

Noxswg

Noxswg

Senior Member
Hey guys,

I came across what's being advertised as a German rework of a Czech Vz23. The rifle appears to be all matching from a post rework. However it has markings I have never seen before and I am wondering if they are legit?
 

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The rifle has only a Vz.23 reciever, other parts are missmatch Vz.24 reserialed by germans most probably, i personally dont like the stamp in butt chanell, but i am not expert on german reworks, is there visible old CS serial on left butt side? b.r.Andy
 
AndyB said:
The rifle has only a Vz.23 reciever, other parts are missmatch Vz.24 reserialed by germans most probably, i personally dont like the stamp in butt chanell, but i am not expert on german reworks, is there visible old CS serial on left butt side? b.r.Andy
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Yes it does.
 

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Could You deciphere the old out striked number? It could be 9166 P1 which is a Vz24 series buttstock. b.r.Andy
 
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I am fairly confident this one is real, a 1942 depot build from HZa Ulm. So I bought it. See the two attached photos.

First is of a very early Hi Power holster made from a heavily modified French Mle1892 revolver holster by HZa Ulm. Note the depot stamp is ZaUlm4. The stamp in the handguard is ZaUlm also (looks like 5). I don't know why the depot marked the inside of the handguard with the ZaUlm5 acceptance. Perhaps it is a vz23 handguard modified to the vz24 profile (thus requiring an inspection)? I can't imagine this was standard operation procedure, but I've never seen another complete Ulm rework. In any case, I doubt very seriously that anyone faking a German depot rework would put a fake depot stamp--does a fake ZaUlm stamp even exist?--under a handguard. Why not put it on the buttstock where everyone would see it?

Second is from RC Ulm depot build serial number V26. The stamp on the RR is a very small E/ZaUlm though I cannot make out the number. The stamp is identical to the stamp on this vz23 receiver. It is double stamped on the vz, but if you look very closely you can just make out the 'ZaUlm'. The rifle is essentially a depot build assembled from salvaged Czech parts, so it makes sense it would be marked the same as the depot K98k built from spares.

Thoughts?
 

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For what it's worth I agree with you Ryan, especially with these photos. It's impossible to see in the auction that the stamp is actually ZaUlm5, looked like ZaUl45 which didn't make sense. That's good work there and it sold for a good price.
 
Good job finding comparative examples Ryan, well done. I had proposed that this might have been a depot stamp over here-
http://ww2weaponsforum.com/showthread.php?15166-Thoughts

But, it didn't seem to make sense to me that it would be stamped inside the channel like that, so I thought it might have been someone with a fake depot stamp that got a little 'motivated.' When you get it, please show it off here. I'm curious what is on the left side flat of the rear sight slider.

Pat
 
I watched that and felt like the underlying rifle was good, though the grinding on the bolt handle looked a little Psn type sloppy. I was iffy about the internal handguard stamping, but didn't research it any further because I've spent way too much and the house remodel is about done. Didn't jump in on that one. Ryan makes valid points. Was the Vz.23 handguard different from the Vz.24? I know the lower band was different. Would it require a revision and reinspection? I found it unusual that an HZa would be popped on the receiver on the right side as well. I follow Vz.24 mods and have not seen that. Doesn't make it wrong, just I haven't seen it.
 
Pat said:
When you get it, please show it off here. I'm curious what is on the left side flat of the rear sight slider.
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No problem. I'll take some pics when I get it. The other side of the slider appears to have a cancelled serial number (early vz23/24 had numbered small parts).

Hambone said:
Ryan makes valid points. Was the Vz.23 handguard different from the Vz.24? I know the lower band was different. Would it require a revision and reinspection? I found it unusual that an HZa would be popped on the receiver on the right side as well. I follow Vz.24 mods and have not seen that. Doesn't make it wrong, just I haven't seen it.
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The rear band is further forward on the vz23. I think they would have had to cut back the handguard for use with a vz24 bands/stock.
 
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RyanE said:
The rear band is further forward on the vz23. I think they would have had to cut back the handguard for use with a vz24 bands/stock.
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I have several Vz.23s but they look converted by the Czechs to Vz.24 spec, though one has a Vz.23 rear band, and they were then German modified. I just don't recall the process and that inspection would have to serve a purpose, to signify some work, or that it was a spare part modified by HZa Ulm for a spare? It's just very unusual. However, you know me, I collect the unusual, like you. Doing your homework on the holster inspect and being aware of this has hopefully paid off. I'm pleased for you if this pup is legit. I feel positive about it.
 
Hambone said:
I have several Vz.23s but they look converted by the Czechs to Vz.24 spec, though one has a Vz.23 rear band, and they were then German modified. I just don't recall the process and that inspection would have to serve a purpose, to signify some work, or that it was a spare part modified by HZa Ulm for a spare? It's just very unusual. However, you know me, I collect the unusual, like you. Doing your homework on the holster inspect and being aware of this has hopefully paid off. I'm pleased for you if this pup is legit. I feel positive about it.
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I think your Spandau vz23 has a vz23 pattern stock and handguard.

Another possibility for the marking is that the handguard was made by Ulm. In the photos some of the woodwork in the rear sight cutout looks a little rough. Perhaps by 1942, spare vz handguards were running low? Seems unlikely, but the Germans did crazier things.

If it were a depot made spare, it definitely would be marked like this one.
 
RyanE said:
I think your Spandau vz23 has a vz23 pattern stock and handguard.

Another possibility for the marking is that the handguard was made by Ulm. In the photos some of the woodwork in the rear sight cutout looks a little rough. Perhaps by 1942, spare vz handguards were running low? Seems unlikely, but the Germans did crazier things.

If it were a depot made spare, it definitely would be marked like this one.
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I think you're right.

Indeed. That rear sight cutout is too rough for a Cz factory item and that would make sense.
 
Wish I kept following this auction now. I got tied up with work and forgot all about it. Happy to see it's going to a fellow member.
 
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