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High Number Mauser DSM

mauser22

Well-known member
First apologies to the other moderators. Still dealing with some challenges.

But I thought this important enough to get the information out.

In 35 years of pursuing the Oberndorf Trainers I have had but few opportunities to purchase any Mauser made Deutsches Sportmodell with Eagle N Proofs.

Only a year or so ago did I see my first gun in the 51K range (Bob Simpson's 51002) and was extremely excited about that.

Then the past year just missed one on an online auction with good pictures that took the range out to 51440. An additional 400+ guns at the end run we did not know were out there.

Just yesterday snagged this one only 30 numbers lower.

Low and behold another in the 51K range popped up on gunbroker past week also.

Perhaps now, I can get motivated to put together the DSM36 story and get it posted.

i will do my best to get that done in upcoming months.

Jon Speed has provided me with all the evidence I needed to support what I long believed and that information needs to be put out there to clear a significant amount of confusion up relative to the DSM Variations.

I owe that and more to Jon, previous mentors and many others who have generously shared their knowledge with me over the years.

Please bare with me.

Good Collecting!!!!!!!!!
 

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Mauser DSM

Jim no problem old friend. Take you time and post when you can.
Hope everything works out and looking forward to more posts by "MAUSER22".
 
51 K dsm

I saw this one as well on g.b. I hope you got it if you went after it.. It went real reasonable i.m.h.o. It may have been listed oddly ? Im not sure. Bob S. just bought another high number mauser dsm34 just recently. It was retailer marked. I have the pic's saved along with this one.. Some gems do slip by the hords on g.b. and rarer gems yet..26k mauser dsm rf/ss.. in all its un-touched goodness was snatched by some Hoser just recently.. Im not sure what you are leaning twords as far as a dsm36 and Im not sure what changes were made on these uber late dsm's.. Ive had a few in the 46k range. 49K is where they switched to e/n proofs I believe.
Good to see you posting here again.. Hope all is well...
 
Thanks all

Yup I got it.

I turned Bob onto the other one.

Yes Probably less than 2k Eagle N Mauser DSM's - rarely seen.

Yes the seller listed it rather oddly, still was surprised to, in my opinion, "stold it". Was expecting some competition at closing.

A blind sow will find an acorn every now and then.

BTW

There was a small run with it's own serial number range of DSM's put together under French Occupation with left over parts that bear Eagle N proofs. Know where two identical examples are. That another story on the "bucket List".

Good Collecting!!!!!!!!
 
For thosr of us who have no concept of dsm production, about what month year would this have been made?
 
Approximate Manufacturing Date

Proof Law Changed I believe from BUG to Eagle N mid 1940.

So certainly subsequent to April or May 1940.

Extrapolating totals produced over the period 1934 to late 1940 or early 1941
results in average monthly production of 500 to 600 guns, probably less monthly as this is during the DSM phase out and Production shift to the KKW.

BALL PARK WAG that is. Certainly not safe to assume that monthly production of non-combat weapons was consistent at that point in time.

Best guess, MOST the eagle N's finished up before the end of 1940 but as the records Jon Speed has presented in the "Mauser Archives" indicate, the last of any model run and certainly these straggled out as parts were used up and Production Control factors varied with the application of available man-hours and skills,etc.

Best guess on these last few hundred is even harder as we know either guns completed in stock, or made up prior to 1941, or after, continued to be sold to near the end of the war.

So there is the matter of, when was it completed?
And the issue of when was it actually sold/dispersed from inventory?

To know with any certainty would necessitate speaking with eye witnesses who are virtually extinct.

But that's the fun of studying this stuff isn't it?

Speculation based on available facts.

Best I can do.
 
The "Omega" DSM????

First a correction to the above. With the addition of 440 rifles with Eagle N proofing, Mauser DSM’s from the serial number range would be approximately 2400 rifles.

This thread motivated me to review the documents presented in Jon’s “Mauser Archives” relative to termination of DSM production.

The most significant clues are on page 289 which shows parts in inventory for the Deutsches Sportmodell as of the 30th of September 1940 (Figure 482).

If one assumes that at this point in time, all production capacity had been converted to the KKW, then this possibly is the terminal report on DSM components.

Per that original Oberndorf Document (not the text) the total of either receivers, barreled receivers, partially completed guns (with receivers) and completed guns is 714. (Items 3, 12, 13, and 14)

If we subtract 714 from 2400 that would mean roughly 1600 Eagle N proofed DSM's had gone out subsequent to the law changing and prior to the 1st of October 1940. (That averages out to about 4 months production consistent with that duration and no doubt a few hundred BUG proofed receivers, partially or fully assembled guns were in inventory when proofing began)

Per the charts (not the text) in Chapter 27, sales subsequent to Sep 1940 specifically mentioning DSM’s through Oct 1944, totaled 593.

The report for 1943 only lists combat weapons in detail and that may very well have been the case given the setbacks for the German Military that year. I suspect a few went out in 43 and the report just omitted them.

That accounts for all but 121 receivers that were inventory in SEP 40 sold by October the 4, 1944.

I am only guessing that a few more were sold subsequent to that and never reported.

We know that a few were assembled Post War during the French Occupation (with a separate serial number sequence and different style font, other features). Only two of these have been personally observed by me but are very similar to the sporters shown in Chapter 30 and the last Centerfire sporters and Walther Roll era sporting centerfires in both finish and blue coloration.

Also Jon showed me a couple receivers in the white never assembled and his other books depict a few receivers in the white that were never assembled.

All that in an effort to better answer the question, “When was this rifle built?” and to satisfy my own curiosity.

It is my opinion, all the components requiring machine processes had been manufactured by the end of September 1940 and the chart aforementioned is the terminal components for the DSM. Stocks in inventory at that point would not have been sufficient to produce another 600 or so rifles, but may have been produced later or may have been sub-contracted. From this point on KKW production no doubt absorbed the preponderance of machine lines, skills, etc necessary to achieve the output of that model produced to war's end.

Since we also know that guns were not necessarily completed in serial number sequence, or shipped out accordingly, just when the last gun was assembled likely will never be known.

I would love to be able to claim the “Omega” Mauser DSM but that is shear fantasy to be able to substantiate.

GOOD COLLECTING!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Further Review of Sep 40 Parts Inventories

Per the documents in "Mauser Archives"

Fig 482 which list DSM parts, including guns in various stages with bolts and bolts listed totals only 308

Of Course ES340/350B bolts would interchange.

However reviewing the parts in inventory for the B Series no bolts are specifically mentioned. Yet over 3000 receivers for various B series sporters are listed. Perhaps some of these included bolts.

With the exception of stocks, and bolts, the other components listed would have been sufficient to produce the quantity of DSM's listed as sold subsequently.

My previous assumption that the DSM and B series machining lines had been knocked down to accommodate KKW production at this point (SEP40) not at all conclusive. Some processes for some components may have been reactivated in limited production, parts found not in this inventory.

I am considering the German Penchant for efficiency.

Further, in September 1940 the fortunes of war were all going in Germany's favor, so there would have been no concern about getting this inventory used up and converted to capital for at least another 3 years.

Like the guns, these wonderful period documents talk to us, give us clues, must be coupled with other historical and economic, and political factors, leave much to the imagination of what "could have happened" etc.

In the end, nothing conclusive without further evidence.
 
Late DSM34 production

Jim there is a really good comparison here with the Standard-Modell series of rifles.
Records show shipments continued into 1944 but it is almost certain that especially the last 2-3years (1942-44) that rifles were only shipped
from existing inventories.

I put any meaningful production ending by 1940-1941 with carryover of inventories of completed rifles and some components.
Thats some 4 years of continued limited distribution of a "discontinued" weapons system.

If you look at the sales ledgers, other weapons systems follow this pattern, including the P08 and C96 of which handfuls were shipped
late in the war.

You are correct in that Archive, if you look hard (and many times right in front of you) gives us many interesting data points for discussion and helps clarify some of the 'muddy waters' concerning MO.
 
Photos added.

Here are the photos I had saved Jim.. the first two are of mauser dsm 49K eagle/N proofs. Gun was ruined by someone adding a scope rail to the barrel. condition was excellent.

The other two you know about..2nd two pics' 50k with Waffen Jung stuttgart retailer stamp.
51K 51410
51x 51022 minty condition. Handguard not orig..

One thing I just noticed was the placement of the E/N proofs on the 51410 The seemed to have switched from a verticle to horizontal proof placement.. Gustloff kkw's have a similar thing happen in their serial range..Maybe the guy got a job at Mauser ? Very interesting indeed..

Glad to see this section perking up a bit...
 

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More Photos Clues

Finally got this one home and knocked down for cleaning and examination yesterday.

omegadsm.jpg

Major clue found.

p1010002-1.jpg

Pencil date (not clearly visible in hand guard barrel channel) "4 11 40" (November 4, 1940)

At first dismissed it as redundant serial number *which is stamped in the normal fashion and last four is 1410. Closer examination revealed it is a date.

Have noted this done randomly on other Oberndorf wood. Not conclusive that this relates to assembly date of gun but follows the time line relative to serial numbers noted.

Also indicative that this gun was among the partially completed or components for it were in the above inventory.

In my opinion this further substantiates that this was likely the terminal inventory of parts.

The translations and some new photos all in progress to merge with text
on presenting the DSM 36 story. Actually, it is evolving into an attempt to cover Mauser Oberndorf's development of the design and address shortcomings and improve the Deutsches Sportmodell.
 
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