Third Party Press

German Belt Frogs - Made or Modified from Foreign Captured Equipment

Slash

Gray Ghost Moderator
Staff member
Well, it's snowing here again today (second winter storm in less than a week) and I can't get to the SOS because of another commitment so thought I would post some additional bayonet frogs. The message thread regarding the late war frog collection seemed to go over well so let's try some really strange stuff. These are all frogs of foreign nations captured or appropriated by the Germans and modified or converted for use with the S84/98III. These modifications or refurbishments generally consisted of one or more of the following:

- Replacement of the front pouch with a German produced S84/98III bayonet frog pouch

- The addition of a hilt retention strap

- Blackening (dyeing) of the leather so as to match other German made equipment

- Adding rivets or reinforced stitching to the captured item so as to model the construction of a German made S84/98III frog

For some strange reason I have always been intrigued by captured and refurbished items such as these and collecting these frogs can be challenging as there are a lot of variations in nation of origin, patterns, modifications, models, etc ...... These frogs tend to be harder to find than their German cousins but most are obtainable if one is inclined to look for them. Descriptive information for each example appears below and there are some pics attached as well. The identification number information is from the book Bayonet Belt Frogs by the late Anthony Carter.

Group pic clockwise from the lower left:


No ID similar to AC321 Czech - German frog refurbished by dying all of the front leather black and adding two German steel rivets to the top of the belt loop area as reinforcement, unmarked no date (unknown maker).

No ID similar to AC323 Czech - German frog refurbished by replacing the original pouch with a German version and dying the remainder of the front leather black. Two slots have been cut to the back and a German retention strap with steel stud has been added. Finally, a long central line of stitching has been added to the back of the frog as reinforcement and to hold the strap in place, unmarked no date (unknown maker).

No ID similar to AC565 Czech - German frog refurbished by replacing the original pouch with a German version and dying the remainder of the leather black. Two aluminum German rivets have been added to the top of the pouch stitching as reinforcement. The original stitching at the side edges of the back have been removed and a German retention strap with aluminum stud has been added. The side stitching was then restored, unmarked no date (unknown maker).

No ID similar to AC323 Czech (or possibly Austrian) - German frog refurbished by dying all of the front leather black. Two slots have been cut all the way through the lower back and a German retention strap with aluminum stud has been added. Finally, two short lines of central stitching has been added to the back of the frog as reinforcement and to hold the strap in place, unmarked no date (unknown maker).

AC327 scarce Italian - German frog refurbished by replacing the original pouch with a black German version but retaining the original dark green Italian paint to the remainder of the front. Carter indicates these bayonets were refurbished and pressed into service after the surrender of Italy to the Allies, reverse stamped with a 0, no date (unknown maker).

AC327 scarce Italian - German frog refurbished by replacing the original pouch with a black German version but retaining the original green Italian paint to the remainder of the front. A rectangular area of reinforcement stitching has also been added at the belt loop area over the original Italian oval stitching, unmarked no date (unknown maker).

AC328 very rare Italian - German late war frog made for the S84/98III. Constructed of double lightweight green canvas material similar to other Italian bayonet frogs but with a dyed black leather reinforcement section stitched to the front of the pouch. Four German steel rivets, two at the belt loop area and two at the top of the pouch are used to reinforce the stitching. Some collectors feel these are all German production late war examples similar in some respects to the so called "bread bag" frogs. Others feel they are Turkish made. I tend to lean toward Carter's original Italian/German identification or perhaps all German as a fall back. Regardless, a rare frog and seldom encountered. I have seen many more Luftwaffe blue tropical web frogs than this pattern, unmarked no date (unknown maker).

No ID similar to AC422 rare Yugoslavian - German frog essentially modified only by the addition of a brown leather German retention strap with aluminum stud. The strap is simply attached to the back of the frog with two hollow brass and steel rivets very similar in appearance and construction to the late war AC320 German frogs. Note also that the retention strap has been positioned with the stud to the right side, in the Yugoslavian style instead of the traditional German, stud to the left configuration. The frog still bears the original Yugoslavian arsenal stamping BT3 3 VTZ below a spread wing eagle, no date (unknown maker).

No ID similar to AC423 scarce Yugoslavian - German frog refurbished by replacing the original pouch with a German version to include the backing material. In this case the entire Yugoslavian pouch (back and front) was removed and the lower section of the frog's back was inserted into the body of the replacement German pouch and stitched in place. The remainder of the front leather has been dyed black, unmarked no date (unknown maker).

No ID similar to AC305 Austrian - German frog for the model S98/05 bayonet refurbished by replacing the original pouch with a German version and dying the remainder of the front leather black. The purpose of the unusual construction pouch with cut out areas to the right side is unknown. S98/05 bayonets bearing early Third Reich German Police property hilt and scabbard stampings have been found with similarly constructed frogs. Some of the frogs have also been observed to have German Police unit or School markings, unmarked no date (unknown maker).


Thanks for looking and hope you've enjoyed these unusual frogs!!
 

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Italian does not surprize me when they gave up the German supply units took control of their depots lots of Italian gear and weapons ended up in German hands
 
Wow! I'm amazed at the variety and what modification each example required to meet German specifications! This whole refurbishment business is something I never even thought about, but evidently there was a whole force of people assigned to refurbishing various pieces of equipment. You mentioned the challenges involved in collecting this type of equipment, I can imagine how difficult it must be to try to figure out exactly what it is that you're looking at. Just out of curiosity, how many pieces do you buy only to find out through research that they're not what you thought they were?
 
I would be certainly carefully to name the first 3 frogs czechoslovak as i dont see any czechoslovak stamps on backside.The diferences between austrian and czechoslovak are only minor.
 
Wow! I'm amazed at the variety and what modification each example required to meet German specifications! This whole refurbishment business is something I never even thought about, but evidently there was a whole force of people assigned to refurbishing various pieces of equipment. You mentioned the challenges involved in collecting this type of equipment, I can imagine how difficult it must be to try to figure out exactly what it is that you're looking at. Just out of curiosity, how many pieces do you buy only to find out through research that they're not what you thought they were?

An interesting question. I guess the answer is too many! And as the post above by Andrej points out it is very easy to make possible misidentifications and other errors. Part of the problem is there is a general lack of reference material regarding these items. Don't get me wrong, Carter's Bayonet Belt Frogs is a great book. As good as we have but it does not go into any great detail regarding captured and/or refurbished frogs. George Wheeler's Seitengewehr book also has a section on foreign frogs modified for German use. These are the two primary sources that I have used to identify these items. That, and personal observations/experience. Andrej is correct, the differences between Austrian and Czechoslovakian frogs are very subtle and to be safe the first three frogs could just as easily be called "Czech or Austrian". The third frog in my opinion has more of an Austrian appearance than the first two examples. I do not however, agree (as stated in at least one reference) that all Czech frogs are marked. The same issues apply to some of the refurbished bayonets in a separate thread posted here. I've made mistakes there as well. Bought pieces that were not right, etc. Trial and error is part of the process I suppose and there is no real substitute for learning and making observations with an item in hand. My thoughts only .....
 
Corect Slash, i never stated that all czechoslovak frogs are stamped, but majority of them mainly of late production are. The czechoslovak copied the austrian design so a differences to find is very hard, same as there are differences by various producers too. Carter book is good, but not without errors.
 
Carter book is good, but not without errors.

I'm not familiar with this book, but this is a good general point. If what you're going by is potentially incorrect then that would make this whole process all the more difficult!
 

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