Luftkampfmesser Info.
- Thread starter Hambone
- Start date
No, not at all.
That is some interesting data on those swords, and I am not quite sure what to make of it. Perhaps since these are goofy dress swords, some were shipped off after completion an accepted elsewhere? I don't think Solingen needed that many BAL offices and I don't think they moved around that much. Very strange.
Another possibility is that these are very, very late production. Most of the officers of the BAL above the rank of Leutnant seem to have been fired or reassigned around November/December 1944. Perhaps the inspectors were simply no longer there, or they didn't have stamps ready for the new officers who replaced them.
BAL stamps disappear from fzs FG42 in late 1944/1945. Possibly something similar here.
This may be the case. The S and W knives are definitely late production. Or at least later than the typical BAL inspected examples. It is interesting to me that the Luftkampfmesser with BAL6 and those with S are stamped in the same location. Also note that the top of the 6 stamping is indistinct. As previously mentioned late war Kappmesser by SMF are marked only on the spike or unbraider. The latest examples are stamped with the S on the obverse and SMF's RBNr on the reverse. In some rare cases there is no stamping to the obverse; perhaps the very latest pieces. Attaching some pics again from the files:
- Luftkampfmesser BAL6 (x2)
- Luftkampfmesser S (x2)
- Late SMF Kappmesser S (x2)
- Late SMF Kappmesser Unmarked (x2)
- Grouping of S marked Messer
Attachments
I pretty much agree with your original thought on these and the opinion put forth in one of the detailed posts above. The S and the W were likely inspector or acceptance marks for these knives contracted by non LW entities. We know for sure that some of these knives were field tested by certain Heer units later war along with gravity knives. We also know that some limited issues of gravity knives were made to certain W-SS units. We also know that by 1942/43 only two makers of gravity knives existed and those were SMF and Weyersberg. Some (very few) type II gravity knifes are also marked S and l no LW acceptance and are always SMF RBNr so IMO the S is hard associated with SMF and these are probably Heer and or W-SS contracted pieces. I fully believe the same applies to the these knives S for Heer (and or W-SS procurement) and W for Weyersberg, the two makers
You guys here know more than me about edged weapons, particularly Slash. I defer. My thoughts were simply based upon my observations and ideas. I did not know that the Luft./LZA suspended use of that inspection, so that was the best I could come up with. Do we know that LZA5 and LZA6 suspended inspection markings?
I certainly have never seen that information (LW suspended acceptance and it marks of such) but base most of my comments on the fighting knife S and W marks on Brunners excellent research in his book on the gravity knife. It is well documented in that book that specially selected army units field tested and got limited issues of both the gravity knife and the or a close combat knife. The timeframe of these trials correspond to when these knives so marked (w or s) would have been made. It seems 99% likely that SMF and Weyersberg were the two and probably only two makers. I think all army (and any SS) procurement of gravity knives were from SMF only and no W marked gravity knives are known, only S marked, maker logo with LW eagle number, RBNr with and without LW eagle number. Those RBNr without eagle or S are very rare but may also represent a knife that went somewhere other than LW.
Guillaume d'Orange
Senior Member
Guys, what about this ?
"S" stamp, just below the edge of the blade, like BAL 6 stamped knives.
"W" stamp center of the blade, like BAL 5 stamped knives
Found something else, this space appears on W/BAL 5 knives, not S/BAL6 knives:
"S" stamp, just below the edge of the blade, like BAL 6 stamped knives.
"W" stamp center of the blade, like BAL 5 stamped knives
Found something else, this space appears on W/BAL 5 knives, not S/BAL6 knives:
Well, the BAL probably didn't suspended inspections in most places, but something very serious happened in the BAL in December 1944.
BAL Officers:
30 November 1944/1 January 1945
Generalingenieure: 18/0
Oberstingenieure: 100/1
Fl-Oberstabsingenieure: 375/13
Fl-Stabsingenieure: 980/907
Fl-Hauptingenieure: 697/738
Fl-Oberingenieure: 322/643
Fl-Ingenieure: 10/1,474
You can see that pretty everybody above the rank of Flieger-Stabsingenieur (Major) was canned and there was a huge number of Lieutenants added. The BAL-Gruppenfuhrer Frankreich, Oberstingenieure Gerhard Schulte, responsible for all BAL activities in France, ends the war as Technische-Offizier in a Luftwaffe HQ at the rank of Hauptmann. To go from a Colonel to a Captain is a long fall.
BAL inspections disappear on HK FG42 at the same time all of this is happening, and I am just suggesting something similar may have been going on with these blades. Perhaps the BAL was no longer involved or the new officers were given new BAL numbers and the stamps hadn't been made yet. I don't really know.
Could also be these S/W pieces are non-Luftwaffe production.
Guillaume d'Orange
Senior Member
Has anyone here noticed that :
W/BAL 5 knives very often got this kind of scabbard (dots):
S/BAL 6 knives very often got this kind of scabbard (crosses):
W/BAL 5 knives very often got this kind of scabbard (dots):
S/BAL 6 knives very often got this kind of scabbard (crosses):
A bit late to the thread but here is an information that nobody told here : The luftwaffen-kampfmesser with LuftAmt 5 also had in some extremely rare cases an RBNr marking ( RBNr 0/0561/0020 ) on the opposite side of the blade. There are many fakes with RBNr but to my knowledge the RBNr 0/0561/0020 is original ( I'm lucky to have one with the complete story behind it and it is 100/100 original ) And there is another RBNr variant that might be real but i've only seen it once in photgraph and can't remember the exact RBNr.
EDIT : The other RBNr. variant that appears to have also existed is the " RBNr 0/0561/0019 "
EDIT : The other RBNr. variant that appears to have also existed is the " RBNr 0/0561/0019 "
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And about this, I personnaly never noticed, but my RBNr/Luftampt5 has the cross variant of scabbard so the type of scabbard probably wasn't issued with great accuracy ( or the soldiers exchanged / lost one and got a new one who knows )
Guillaume d'Orange
Senior Member
This is just a theory, based on observations. So not verified.
I did not know that some of these knives had RBNr. Will you please make a post to show us your knife ?
Sure, but now that you've mentionned it, I admit there seems to be some kind of patern there.. Sure, I will post it here as I already made some posts about it on other forums, but I learned more on it since then
Here it is ( the images are to big for the forum so i used links instead ) :
Visionneuse images - Noelshack - https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2023/21/2/1684871060-img-3435.jpg
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It's one of the jewels of my collection. It was gifted to me by an old man I knew.
From what he told me and with the help of after action reports I know the full story behind this knife which is pretty insane. But to make it short :
It belonged to a young soldier of the 5th Falschirmjager division during the battle of the bulge. The US 87th infantry division tried to make some recon missions inside Hatrival, a small village, during the night of the 4th of januray 1945. The recon squad leaded by Sergeant Donald E. Campbell unwillingly started a firefight with the Falschirmjagers in the village and while running back killed a few German soldiers. One of them was buried by the father of the old man who gave me the knife, and when he buried the fallen soldier he saw this knife and took it, he used it to kill chickens/rabbits in his small farm after the war.
(The knife also has the space in the wood like you showed in a previous post)
Guillaume d'Orange
Senior Member
Thank you Sir. If you don't mind, I've resized two pics and uploaded them here so that they remain on the forum :Here it is ( the images are to big for the forum so i used links instead ) :
Visionneuse images - Noelshack - https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2023/21/2/1684871060-img-3435.jpg
Vous avez des images? Envoyez-les et partagez-les super rapidement avec NoelShack!Visionneuse images - Noelshack - https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2023/21/2/1684871157-aa.jpg
Vous avez des images? Envoyez-les et partagez-les super rapidement avec NoelShack!Visionneuse images - Noelshack - https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2023/21/2/1684871157-aaa.jpg
Vous avez des images? Envoyez-les et partagez-les super rapidement avec NoelShack!Visionneuse images - Noelshack - https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2023/21/2/1684871059-img-3438.jpg
Vous avez des images? Envoyez-les et partagez-les super rapidement avec NoelShack!
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It's one of the jewels of my collection. It was gifted to me by an old man I knew.
From what he told me and with the help of after action reports I know the full story behind this knife which is pretty insane. But to make it short :
It belonged to a young soldier of the 5th Falschirmjager division during the battle of the bulge. The US 87th infantry division tried to make some recon missions inside Hatrival, a small village, during the night of the 4th of januray 1945. The recon squad leaded by Sergeant Donald E. Campbell unwillingly started a firefight with the Falschirmjagers in the village and while running back killed a few German soldiers. One of them was buried by the father of the old man who gave me the knife, and when he buried the fallen soldier he saw this knife and took it, he used it to kill chickens/rabbits in his small farm after the war.
(The knife also has the space in the wood like you showed in a previous post)
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