HNZAInn4 or something else?

I think I have probably identified the correct location of HNZa 'Inn4'.

For a long time, the best guess for 'Inn' has been Innsbruck, but this has always been a bit of a problem since Innsbruck isn't included on any period list of depots or in any modern research. The well documented HNZa Hall is also literally 5 miles down the road from Innsbruck. Why setup a second branch depot so close by? The 'Inn' abbreviation is also atypical since the Germans always used at least the first and last letter of the town (Jnt for Ingolstadt, Su for Spandau, etc.).

After carefully examining many examples of this stamp, I am 85% certain the HNZa isn't Innsbruck and the stamp isn't 'Inn4'. It is Thn4 for HNZa Thorn, a documented branch depot of HZa Graudenz in Wehrkreis XX. This would fit perfectly since every single complete XX depot built rifle I am aware of is marked HNZAThn4. I am guessing that all of the depot builds were actually done at Thorn.

To back this up, here are some pictures of some well stamped examples. In the first and second, I think you can clearly see that the second letter is in fact an 'h'. The T is a little harder to make out since it touches the bottom of the swastika, but zoom in on all the examples I have attached (the hardwood vz24 especially) and you can see the bar along the top making a 'T' just touching the bottom of the eagle in all of them.

I could be wrong but I think this fits.

By George I think you are right! I have a French rifle with a real clear stamp, I’ll dig it out and inspect it. Makes perfect sense to me too.

I picked up a few I’ve never seen before, hopefully I’ll have time to
Post them soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think you're correct, Ryan. The second letter is definitely not an 'N,' its shaped differently than the 'N' it precedes. There's enough of that top bar on the 'T' to ID it as such. Good catch!

Pat

Ill check my 98M again. I'll see if I can get some nice crisp pictures with some magnifying equipment.

Great discovery. Hopefully we can change that 85% certainty to 99%

For what it’s worth, here’s the same stamp on my M1903/14 Mannlicher-Schonauer. There’s a small scratch on the ‘T.’

Pat




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed. Second letter is not n. Nice work man!!

RyanE said:

The 'Inn' abbreviation is also atypical since the Germans always used at least the first and last letter of the town (Jnt for Ingolstadt, Su for Spandau, etc.).

Click to expand...

I have always wondered about that..... just figured rules were made to be broken and a lot of depot rifles prove it. But I think you’re absolutely right here. After reading this it’s now plain as day as shown in the first photo you posted. This was a great clarification!

The T is overlapping the bottom of the circle, but it’s too “right” to be a bad guess. No Nikon photo but an iPhone photo from a Lebel.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ryan,
Good detective work, this was always confusing to me, thanks for clearing it up.

mrfarb said:

The T is overlapping the bottom of the circle, but it’s too “right” to be a bad guess. No Nikon photo but an iPhone photo from a Lebel.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

I’m seeing the same thing with the cross of “T” in line with the bottom of the circle.

RyanE said:

It is Thn4 for HNZa Thorn, a documented branch depot of HZa Graudenz in Wehrkreis XX. This would fit perfectly since every single complete XX depot built rifle I am aware of is marked HNZAThn4. I am guessing that all of the depot builds were actually done at Thorn.

To back this up, here are some pictures of some well stamped examples. In the first and second, I think you can clearly see..

Click to expand...

Great work Ryan! This fits in many ways. Geographic proximity, nature of the city itself. It's location.

The first two examples are clear as can be, even with my older eyes.

Excellent work Ryan, I just had the opportunity to read this. It shows how much there still is to learn when we think we’ve about nailed most of it down. It shows too that we shouldn’t accept things just because we of the conventional wisdom tell us without looking for ourselves

Agree! A great thread.

Stan said:

Agree! A great thread.

Click to expand...

Sure is Stan. I chuckle inside when I see someone talk about things as they're common but the reality is those facts often take some serious digging to find. Members being fluent and able to research in the native language helps immensely too. I'm impressed pretty often here.

Excellent reasoning and research, - while often it is assumed that we have resolved all the large questions, or at least to the extent possible, I think there is no other field (depots) with more potential for further research.

Bumping this thread with some documentary proof courtesy of the Gortz/Sturgess Luger book. This document from 1942 lists the depots where units were to send weapons for major repairs. The repair center for WK.XX is lited as H.N.Za Thorn. I think this makes it conclusive that Thorn was doing all of the rifle work, including all of the XX depot builds and repairs. H.Za Graudenz must have been doing other things.

That’s what you call the nail in the coffin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Excellent observation and deductive reasoning to solve a mystery. A great thread to read.