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Chapter 1: Model 98 Development, Weltkreig, and the Weimar Period

ugafx4

I buy capture paper guns
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Volume 1 Chapter 1 Discussion; 11-14-20

Chapter 1: Model 98 Development, Weltkreig, and the Weimar Period pages 18-61 Approx 40 minutes of reading

As you read, please post any questions or comments here. I think we should do this in real time as you read feel free to comment here.
 
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So I wanted to start this discussion out with a couple of broader questions about weapon development. These are both things I was thinking about in the first chapter. What was the first rifle to use stripper clips? Did Mauser model 89 borrow that from somewhere else? Also, why were stacking rods deemed necessary?
 
Also, why were stacking rods deemed necessary?

Having been in the Army, our M4s were very much lacking stacking rods. Despite this, I saw plenty of troops try to make a rifle teepee only to have it fall over. The ability to stack rifles in a way that they won't fall over has great value, especially in a training environment. Stacking rifles allow soldiers to set aside their weapons in a way that keeps them off the ground. Additionally, a rifle teepee will allow the soldier who is acting as the "weapons guard" to be able to maintain better control over the weapons, as they are in a more condensed area. While not being entirely "necessary", I do believe that they are extremely practical.
 
Having been in the Army, our M4s were very much lacking stacking rods. Despite this, I saw plenty of troops try to make a rifle teepee only to have it fall over. The ability to stack rifles in a way that they won't fall over has great value, especially in a training environment. Stacking rifles allow soldiers to set aside their weapons in a way that keeps them off the ground. Additionally, a rifle teepee will allow the soldier who is acting as the "weapons guard" to be able to maintain better control over the weapons, as they are in a more condensed area. While not being entirely "necessary", I do believe that they are extremely practical.

Very good points. I was in the military for 20 years (just retired in September). I will tell you the sound of a rifle hitting the floor makes your heart drop. It’s a no-no. You can hear the gasp from all the guys around while the one whose rifle it was dies from embarrassment lol.
 
Ok, just read Chapter 1. For me its better if I read a chapter and then discuss it, me trying to discuss 3 chapters is going to be fragmented - this is going to be a stream of conscious kinda thing. First off, I didn't write this chapter so I have no insight into Bruce's research. But, I can tell you that stacking of arms is a military tradition for many Armies, especially Germany.

I imagine you are referring to why the Kar98a specifically has a stacking hook (if not, I'm going with this)? I can tell you the reason it was added to the Kar98a specifically - it has no provision for a cleaning rod, so it needs it. The Kar98a was originally designed for Cavalry troops and rear echelon (drivers, etc), soldiers that weren't fighting in trenches with long range shots. At least thats been my understanding. I've read anecdotal stories that the sharp report of the carbine type rifles was a signal to attacking soldiers that the enemy were rear echelon troops and would be easier to overwhelm. I don't recall the book, but it was about WW1.

As to the stripper clip on the Model 89, good question. I know that previous weapons all used clips that were inserted into the magazine and fell out the bottom. Many Beutewaffen have these type of clips. But the idea of a 5 round charging clip is different.

Now - for Chapter 1 - Not enough K98k collectors learn about the Interwar period in my opinion. Prior to writing this book, I fell into that camp. Paul Shomper is someone I consider an expert on the period, and his writings are included here. If you can imagine the state of Germany after WW1, the Versailles Treaty was not a surrender document, but Germany was sold out in the name of Peace. The country had a rising Communist threat, which forced the German military out of the trenches in order to stop the red tide at home. Many soldiers who came home didn't feel like they lost, but rather were stabbed in the back by politicians. In every way the postwar period guaranteed the rise of another powerful military Germany dead set on revenge. Reading the chapter, Bavaria was the hot spot for Polish communist actions, and the Ruhr area for France. The actions between WW1 really set the tone for 1939.

One of the reasons I like Interwar Gew,98 and Kar98b rifles is the history of Germany at the time. If you pick up a Gew.98 flat sight conversion, you can read the history in the rifle like a book, the markings applied by WW1 armorers, intewar armorers and nazi era armorers all come together for some history. But that is Chapter 3, which I will read last.

One point of interest I can think of. The document on P.61 showing the secret letter codes for 1925 - 1935 leads one to believe it was planned to stop the letter/date code in 1936. This is actually not true - the original list from 1925 has secret letter codes up through 1938. So - the letter codes, had they continued; 1936 - S , 1937 - J, 1938 - H. So, we could have had S/42 H, or S/147 J. My personal feeling was the HWA at the time realized that there was about to be an issue.

S/42 S - S/147 S - S/27 S

Get it? It might have been confusing.

So something I see that wasn't covered in this chapter, the actual meaning of the letter "S" in the secret code (I'm pretty sure we covered it later, but seems like it could have fit here). Most know this, but since the Chapter covers it - Simson was the only firm allowed to manufacture military arms for the Weimar Govt. according to the treaty. So, items made for the Weimar Govt. as replacement parts or arms were marked with an "S", to denote Simson as the manufacturer. Another less known fact is Polte was the only firm allowed to manufacture ammunition, so ammunition was marked with a "P" to denote Polte.

As the Germans started to ignore the treaty, firms that manufactured parts illegally simply used the secret code system to circumvent the inspection system. Hence, "S.28" marked DWM rifles and parts, so any items in military inventory appeared to be made at Simson. I'll speak more to that once I finish chapter 2, I have examples of these rifles in there so I don't want to get ahead of myself. But, we should have covered this aspect IMO.

I will add this - Paul Shomper disagreed in principle with my theory on this, that "S" was meant to imply Simson. He rightfully knows that by the time Germany was making goods using "S" codes, most of the treaty was already being ignored, and inspectors were long gone. It makes sense, BUT, I feel like its too convenient. I think it started as an idea to circumvent inspections, but was eventually just regarded as procedure, or the way things were done. If you note, "P" codes in ammunition carried on many years into the war, while S codes ended about the time war broke out. Also, interestingly enough, a lot of really early depot replacement parts have "S" markings on them, along with manufacturers codes.

To show how intertwined the books and forums are, further reading (I will add to this as I find interesting links). Note that some of these links contain post from world renowned experts IMO, including the late John Wall:

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/w...senals-get-sent-to-post-wwi.185132/?id=185132

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread...-transfer-to-Czechoslovakia-post-WW1-for-Paul

EWB Info - http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?116-Ewb

An EWB marked flat sight rifle http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?10209-1918-Amberg-EWB-98m
 
One point of interest I can think of. The document on P.61 showing the secret letter codes for 1925 - 1935 leads one to believe it was planned to stop the letter/date code in 1936. This is actually not true - the original list from 1925 has secret letter codes up through 1938. So - the letter codes, had they continued; 1936 - S , 1937 - J, 1938 - H. So, we could have had S/42 H, or S/147 J. My personal feeling was the HWA at the time realized that there was about to be an issue.

S/42 S - S/147 S - S/27 S

Get it? It might have been confusing.

So something I see that wasn't covered in this chapter, the actual meaning of the letter "S" in the secret code. Most know this, but since the Chapter covers it - Simson was the only firm allowed to manufacture military arms for the Weimar Govt. according to the treaty. So, items made for the Weimar Govt. as replacement parts or arms were marked with an "S", to denote Simson as the manufacturer. Another less known fact is Polte was the only firm allowed to manufacture ammunition, so ammunition was marked with a "P" to denote Polte.

As the Germans started to ignore the treaty, firms that manufactured parts illegally simply used the secret code system to circumvent the inspection system. Hence, "S.28" marked DWM rifles and parts, so any items in military inventory appeared to be made at Simson. I


How effective were the letter codes at fooling IAMCC inspectors? I have a suspicion that many inspectors may have known something was fishy, but chose to ignore it. It would be interesting to locate a primary source that could shine some light on this. This, I imagine, is nearly impossible.
 
This is a rare week with multiple chapters, so I am going to go ahead and break this up into 3 different threads. Good idea Mike.
 
How effective were the letter codes at fooling IAMCC inspectors? I have a suspicion that many inspectors may have known something was fishy, but chose to ignore it. It would be interesting to locate a primary source that could shine some light on this. This, I imagine, is nearly impossible.

Well, the truth is by the time the Germans began in earnest with production using the codes the inspections were essentially over. I think the chapter discusses some of this idea you suspect, that the inspectors knew rifles were being hidden and tomfoolery was afoot. But, they figured in the grand scheme of things the disarmament was effective. Lets be honest, the hidden guns and underground production didn't assist in the rise of a rearmed Germany, it took a major effort by the Nazi's to do that. So, even the clandestine activities weren't something to be worried about. Perhaps the HWA (can't recall the specific name of the official organization, I'd have to relearn that) decided on the system as a future-proof CYA? Yes, some period documents would be helpful here, but as seen in the later chapters, the HWA of the time was really quite ineffective so I bet not much documentation exists? Something to look into.

If you want a good read on this period of development, Sturmgeweher! by Hans Deiter Handrich is awesome. Perhaps there are some documents there, i will look when I get a chance.
 
The Mauser 89 was the first instance of the stripper clip (except maybe the Schmidt-Rubin 1889), but it is just a natural simplification of the Mannlicher en-bloc system. A lot of gun designers were tinkering and building on one another's work. Whether Mauser borrowed the idea from someone else or not, he certainly perfected it.

As for the K98a specifically, it needs the stacking rod because 1) they wanted to stack the rifles when armies were encamped and 2) the bayonet lug is mounted so far forward a cleaning rod just isn't going to be able to do the job. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the lug is mounted so far forward to maximize the reach of the weapon with the bayonet mounted. People forget that before WW1 cavalry charges were still considered a very serious threat. Its one reason rifles of the period were still so long.
 
If you want a good read on this period of development, Sturmgeweher! by Hans Deiter Handrich is awesome. Perhaps there are some documents there, i will look when I get a chance.

I have been meaning to pick up a copy for a while. I should go ahead and order one.
 
Mauser first patented the "stripper clip" in 1895. Several improvements followed.
 

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Done my reading.
On p.19, a few words about the arms race with France after Franco-Prussian War might have helped understand why there were so many rifle models (not mentioning innovations like smokeless powder, from the French ennemy).
On p.24, I'm not sure about the "gap years" for Gew 98 production. For example, Mauser is supposed to have stopped production in 1908 (according to Storz).
On p.31, I'm surprised the 1917 Kar98a shown has no takedown disk, does anyone know why ?
On p.36, may there's a typo here: "the finger groove and bolt takedown disk assembly were added in 1915 and 1916 respectively", I would have thought 1916 and 1917.

Overall a very informative and condensed chapter, 40 pages to cover the topic is quite a feat.
 
In relation to chapter 1, there are also some interesting explanations in Storz about the future of Gew 98 before the end of WWI ("Defects on the M98 rifle or the Search for a Successor", p266-275).

Storz quotes parts of the "Guidelines for Expanding and Improving the Infantry Rifle" by the Gewehr-Prüfungskommission. GPK seems to have highly regarded the Arisaka 38.
Improvements were finally determined in November 1917 so that the elusive M98/17 could be produced. Mauser and Simson appear to have been involved in the project, but it never came to fruition.

Storz laments that defects pointed out by the GPK were not remedied and K98k kept some of them as if lessons learned fell between the cracks.

They were presumably lost when GPK turned into IWG, which finally turned into HWA.
 
I "found" the information regarding who was "allowed" to manufacture items in the interwar years. Its in Michael Heidlers "Deutsche Fertigunskennzeichen" which seems to be impossible to find now. If you can find a copy it is a great book to own.

In relation to what we are covering, these factories were the only ones allowed to make Army weapons up until 1927 - in 1927 the list was abridged but these companies remained:

Barrels up to 17cm- Krupp
Barrels over 17cm - RheinMetall
Pistols, rifles, MG's, sights - Simson
Optical - Zeiss
Cut and Thrust weapons - Weyersburg Kirschbaum & Co
Ammuntion for small arms and artillery - Polte
Hand and Rifle Grenades - Richard Rinker (note all early Grenades have the ЯR mark followed by the 3 number maker code).

So it did carry through that the secret code system was as I suspected, the "approved" makers first (or company code like Richard Rinker) letter followed by the number code. This is laid out in Heidlers book as well.
 
I "found" the information regarding who was "allowed" to manufacture items in the interwar years. Its in Michael Heidlers "Deutsche Fertigunskennzeichen" which seems to be impossible to find now. If you can find a copy it is a great book to own.

Heidler has the 4th edition for sale on eBay. He still has some. I bought one a couple of weeks ago.
 

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