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Chapter 3: The modified Gew98 (Gew98M), Gew 98 mit S.s Visier

ugafx4

I buy capture paper guns
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Discussion on Chapter 3: The modified Gew98 (Gew98M), Gew 98 mit S.s Visier pages 104-128 Approx 20 minutes of reading
 
I did not realize the difference in ballistics between S Patrone and sS Patrone was so material that the Reichswehr/Wehrmacht had to change the rear sight ramps of old Gew98 and newly-produced 98b.

When was the sS Patrone officially adopted for use in rifles ? On p.103, in the previous chapter, a quote from Paul says 1929/1930, do we know the exact date ?

My takeaway (maybe a statement of the obvious) is that one must shoot a K98k with FMJ BT cartridges like PPU (which are a replica of sS Patrone).
 
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I did not realize the difference in ballistics between S Patrone and sS Patrone was so material that the Reichswehr/Wehrmacht had to change the rear sight ramps of old Gew98 and newly-produced 98b.

When was the sS Patrone officially adopted for use in rifles ? On p.103, in the previous chapter, a quote from Paul says 1929/1930, do we know the exact date ?

My takeaway (maybe a statement of the obvious) is that one must shoot a K98k with FMJ BT cartridges like PPU (which are a replica of sS Patrone).


Thanks for getting this chapter discussion started. Every time I see a new post notification next to these threads I get excited. Thanks for participating! I hope we get answers to all your questions and I think we will.
 
My favorite part of chapter 3 is the Amberg Modified Gew98 on page 116. So my neat features in that one. How many of you guys have these Modified Gew98 rifles in your collection. How common are the rifles covered in this chapter? I am just trying to get a grasp of how common some of the between war rifles are here in the US?
 
My favorite part of chapter 3 is the Amberg Modified Gew98 on page 116. So my neat features in that one. How many of you guys have these Modified Gew98 rifles in your collection. How common are the rifles covered in this chapter? I am just trying to get a grasp of how common some of the between war rifles are here in the US?

Only own one a Danzig 1916 Gew98m LK5 marked rifle but have another Gew98m that I bought just this week.

They are very interesting rifles and they all seem to have cool features and everyone I have seen is different one way or another. Too tell you the truth they are quite hard and scarce to find matching but when you do find them they sell for way under what their worth. Their not Imperial era or Nazi era but Weimer era.
 
My favorite part of chapter 3 is the Amberg Modified Gew98 on page 116. So my neat features in that one. How many of you guys have these Modified Gew98 rifles in your collection. How common are the rifles covered in this chapter? I am just trying to get a grasp of how common some of the between war rifles are here in the US?

I actually own that rifle, it is neat. I bought it from the Ambrose Selker collection. I never met him, but he collected a lot of really neat WW1 and Interwar firearms, of which I was able to buy some at auction. I own maybe 6-7 of the flat sight conversion rifles in varying states. Whats neat about them is every single one is different, and each one is like a book that can be read. It's the joy of actually collecting them. Anyway, I have started reading this chapter to when I get into it I'll chime in. Being a collector of these I can maybe have some insights. They can be had for a decent price if you are patient. Many are Nazi era depot marked as well. A lot of them went to the Spanish for the Spanish Civil War, and returned to the US as surplus, but all of those are ruined with refinishing, barrels chopped, sporterized. The Nazi's sent them to Spain to fight a proxy was against communist.
 
Personally I really do love these Gew98m they keep opening up new discovers.

Like this rear sight base still have no clue what this marking is for. Neat though.
 

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That is cool, I’ve seen that before, but can’t remember where. I think there’s an old thread here, maybe someone remembers it?

These are very interesting rifles, I especially enjoy the depot builds.
 

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Personally I really do love these Gew98m they keep opening up new discovers.

Like this rear sight base still have no clue what this marking is for. Neat though.

If I was forced to guess, I'd say its a depot mark. But, that said, there are no known depots that match it. Could be a smaller HNZa (HeeresNebenZeugamt), or branch office? This is the location the BKIW stamped a CrownO on the S28 guns.
 
One of my primary interests is Haenel. When a friend text me and said he was at a house with a Mauser that said Haenel, I told him to buy it sight unseen.

It is certainly one of my favorite rifles. Sadly I do not have any over all shots of it!

The mix of markings, along with some I have not figured out, and the date.... 1935? Must have been the tail end of things! And that they salvaged such a badly pitted receiver. Desperate? Bottom of the pile?
 

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That wrist is marked Spandau, Hannover and Mainz. She’s been through the system baby!!! Love it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
A couple more that wouldn't fit in the first post.
 

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Two questions from this chapter:

1. Was the modified G98 really outdated? Who were they issued to once updated?
2. Why was the small narrow band upgraded to a wide band?
 
Two questions from this chapter:

1. Was the modified G98 really outdated? Who were they issued to once updated?
2. Why was the small narrow band upgraded to a wide band?

Storz gives an answer to question n°2, page 432 of Rifle & Carbine 98 : "Rifles were given new, broader lower bands that did not become loose as easily when carried than the old, narrower ones. Carbines had broader lower bands anyway."
 
Two questions from this chapter:

1. Was the modified G98 really outdated? Who were they issued to once updated?

Yes, it really was outdated, because of the length. From what I've read, Armies (even during WW1) had to defend against mounted cavalry attacks, meaning horseback soldiers. Foot mounted soldiers needed a longer rifle/bayonet with more reach to parry with mounted troops. You can see this in the fact that the shorter barrel was developed in every nation as mounted cavalry became obsolete. At least that is what I have been lead to believe?
 
Yes, it really was outdated, because of the length. From what I've read, Armies (even during WW1) had to defend against mounted cavalry attacks, meaning horseback soldiers. Foot mounted soldiers needed a longer rifle/bayonet with more reach to parry with mounted troops. You can see this in the fact that the shorter barrel was developed in every nation as mounted cavalry became obsolete. At least that is what I have been lead to believe?


Yes, the horse mounted warrior's days of success on the battle field ended with the advent of mechanization . Th Infantry no longer needed the long rifle to combat the cavalry. The reality was that with the advent of repeating rifles and the machine gun the horse mounted soldier was obsolete by the 1880s. The reality of WW1 put paid to the cavalry riding to victory over dismounted troops, but it took another war to spell the true end to horse mounted soldiers. We finally got rid of our last horse mounted troops in 1942.

https://www.press-citizen.com/story...valry-army-unsaddled-its-last-horse/82098652/
 
There is more to the barrel length than just soldiers fending off cavalry. I have been researching the US Mauser Trials in 1891-1894 for several years now. In all the documentation I have read, letters, reports, telegraphs, etc, there hasn’t been on mention of barrel length and cavalry. There has been a great deal of conversation on bullet type and construction, twist rate, and the bulk of the conversations being about powder; burn rates, velocities, etc.

Burn rates and velocities of the powders available prior to WWI, were best suited in longer barrels.
 
Sure it was outdated, due to length as Mike stated, - actually the length was an issue in 1919, the 98a stayed in service longer because it was lighter and shorter and was more suited to needs (fighting pirates, bandits, criminal - police functions, railroad cars, river pirates, general police duties, forests, customs etc.. Germany had dozens of police organizations and kept changing their names and "stated functions", in reality generally a reserve of armed men as the French rightly stated, but 100,000 men were entirely inadequate for internal security under a crisis, needless to say even resisting one potential adversary- Poland in particular, but in truth the real threat was the far left/nazis and communists, especially early on and after 1931).

The upgraded G98 was well suited for the armed forces and its stated duties under Versailles, - internal security and minimal self-defense, Reichsheer leaders did not complain about rifles, at least initially, their worries were more regarding ammunition. It was a constant complaint... naturally by 1929-1931 the rifle was grossly inadequate, that is why a frugal Reichsheer spent money on development of the shortened 98b, but deemed it too costly to have it commercially produced (Simson) and the HZa system was incapable of performing the modifications in a timely manner, - apparently only Spandau was capable and the others would need modernization ($$), but things were changing and rearmament was becoming a priority, in 1931 the German government refused under considerable pressure (Hoover and the English) to scrap their Pocket Battleships under production or planning, further the first real re-armament legislation was passed by Schleicher, not Hitler as is so often stated. Germany was re-arming regardless and it was beyond stupid (and arrogant) to think Germany and Russia would sit on the sidelines more than a decade or so... Wilson should be dug up and his corpse should be kicked around the cemetery.

Anyway, luckily WMO was developing its own program with the Standard Modell and modifications that would become the 98k (though the Reichsheer was the first to attempt this in 1929, shortening the 98b to 98k). the G98 and 98a would continue in service throughout the second war as secondary arms for support troops, training and police for the 98a.

*** Wide RB, added stability over a larger surface area, the slim bands would break, and or often slip past the spring, - the common gouges are not "kill marks", they are from bands slipping and gouging the lower forearm, though it would also put pressure on the slim band and break. It was a good modification, HZa Spandau and Simson produced large numbers.

Two questions from this chapter:

1. Was the modified G98 really outdated? Who were they issued to once updated?
2. Why was the small narrow band upgraded to a wide band?
 
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We also have to think at the time Nations wanted a longer barrel to make the most use of the smokeless powder cartridge as well. In those times they thought of soldiers almost like mobile artillery. We can soften the enemy up at a thousand plus meters and then charge across the battlefield with bayonets and rush them. Of course we know the machine gun pretty much eliminated that feature. The British Empire and the United States had it right with the SMLE and the 1903 Springfield. A short rifle for use between Calvary and Rifleman. Also saved on manufacturing cost as well you don't have to build two different types of weapons between infantrymen and Calvary you can issue them both a Universal Weapon.
 
I have 5 98m's. All have some of the mods, none have the entire suite of mods. All have either the "k" or "g" date on the new rear sight. One has a 1940 dated barrel cut for a sight protector. Interesting rifles that are few in matching, good condition.
 

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