Third Party Press

Karab. 98b - year of manufacture

Gerst

Senior Member
Karab. 98b & inter-war transitionals

I have seen a number of posts about 98b rifles, how many were made, block codes and things like that.

A rifle I am considering has the serial number 1557 and what looks like a c underneath on the left side of the receiver. There is an eagle just to the left. The same number is on the barrel just behind the rear sight. The rear sight also has the Simson “S” with a tiny eagle and the number 81 just below the eagle. It also has the ammunition “sS” stamps and the number 92.

What year was this rifle manufactured?

This rifle is one of my collection goals which is to find an example of all the rifles carried by my father, uncles and grandfathers in WWI, Reichswehr and Wehrmacht.

Question: was what we now call the Gewehr 98m issued to Reichswehr soldiers after they stopped producing the 98b or were both in use at the same time?
 
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Pics of the receiver and barrel
 

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Both the 98b and the Gew98 with improved sight (G98M) were both in use at the same time. In the early Weimar years I am sure the unmodified Gew98 was in use as well . There is pictorial evidence of all three of these models being used well into the National Socialist period.
 
I’ve been told it is a 1927-28 manufacture. Can someone tell me how to determine that? I guess you divide the number of guns made by some other number and add it to the first year they made them. Not very scientific! I thought the Germans had a system where you could tell which guy made the gun and what color shoes he was wearing!

I’m sorry. It’s like the guy said in “Spies Like Us,” people mock what they do not understand.
 
Recent purchase for 98b

I just received my Simson trigger guard with matching floor plate, spring and follower. It looks great. I will get the rifle nect week.
 

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A subjective calculation naturally, largely based upon prior production, assuming 1925 dated are slightly more than normal for a given year, we can assume 1926 ended sometime in the early-mid b-block (markings and acceptance changes and a general normalization-standardization begins early b-block) and 1927 would range through latter b-block and early c-block. There were no catastrophic events between 1925-1930 to cause a significant disruption, some scandals and intrigues (some tension with the Entente over withdraw delays), but one can assume some "normalcy" during this period in production. I extend the range to 1928 on the chance production varied more than expected. It is not 1926 production nor is it after 1928... therefore 1927 and possibly early 1928.

I’ve been told it is a 1927-28 manufacture. Can someone tell me how to determine that? I guess you divide the number of guns made by some other number and add it to the first year they made them. Not very scientific! I thought the Germans had a system where you could tell which guy made the gun and what color shoes he was wearing!

I’m sorry. It’s like the guy said in “Spies Like Us,” people mock what they do not understand.
 
A subjective calculation naturally, largely based upon prior production, assuming 1925 dated are slightly more than normal for a given year, we can assume 1926 ended sometime in the early-mid b-block (markings and acceptance changes and a general normalization-standardization begins early b-block) and 1927 would range through latter b-block and early c-block. There were no catastrophic events between 1925-1930 to cause a significant disruption, some scandals and intrigues, but one can assume some "normalcy" during this period in production. I extend the range to 1928 on the chance production varied more than expected. It is not after 1928...

Thank you for the explanation. How many rifles are in a “block?” Do they start with “a?”


Here are more photos of the rifle I am looking at.
 

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Only a few 1926 are known, about as rare as 1924 dated, all early a-blocks as I recall.... clearly dating stopped in the early a-block but 1926 production continued undated. I characterize rifles by changes, type I, II, TypeIII etc... based upon dates, RR changes (types of S and placement)and between the 1925 dated and the early b-block considerable variation exists. I suspect 1927 starts around the period of stability, fits the yearly breakdown anyway. Some of these rifles between dropping the date (1926) and the normalization beginning in the early b-block are some rare rifles, CB and I discussed this at some length when he was seeking out one of the rarest of these variations. An auction where he succeeded in buying a nice example.

Anyway, this typing on a laptop in the dark is inconvenient, if I can get a connection tomorrow maybe I can firm up the observations, as my database and trends are not handy at the moment. (and memory isn't what it once was - never great really)
 
Just curious, when did 98b production cease? I recall a pic of Hitler touring an arms factory with freshly finished 98b's on a rack in Law's BOTW (if that pic was accurately captioned).
 
Banned for life


When I clicked these links the forum said I was banned forever. Not having ever heard of this forum, I was quite surprised. I didn’t know my reputation was that bad or well-known.

How did they know how I voted?
 
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I was forced to lock my forum because of spammers trying to gain access or attain information on members.

It was overwhelmed and members were complaining about unsolicited crap being sent to them.

IF YOU WANT TO JOIN JUST CONTACT ME PERSONALLY

ONCE I HAVE VETTED YOU, I WILL ALLOW YOU TO REGISTER
 
I was forced to lock my forum because of spammers trying to gain access or attain information on members.

It was overwhelmed and members were complaining about unsolicited crap being sent to them.

IF YOU WANT TO JOIN JUST CONTACT ME PERSONALLY

ONCE I HAVE VETTED YOU, I WILL ALLOW YOU TO REGISTER

What do this links take you to?
 
Just curious, when did 98b production cease? I recall a pic of Hitler touring an arms factory with freshly finished 98b's on a rack in Law's BOTW (if that pic was accurately captioned).

What page? It is doubtful Hitler ever toured Simson Suhl, Arthur remained until 1935 as I recall, but in 1933 the NS state (the Gauleiter Sauckel, sort of a party governor) brought charges and had a manager appointed to supervise the company. The same year it was put under an umbrella company and became BSW. Further, we know the SR designation of Mod.98 was adopted in August 1930, and while a lapse between directive and application is probable only the very tail end of the f-block have this Mod.98 designation. The last confirmed f-block is 9482/f (two strange rifles with an apparent "o" suffix is known, both have the Mod.98 SR but is probably something explainable, possibly a g-block, but the suffix is clearly O-block? Obviously the missing 9-10 blocks inbetween f and o is an impossible hurdle to explain away)

Anyway, seems unlikely Simson continued with the 98b much beyond 1931, the economy was in free fall in 1931 and would eventually create the opportunity for Hitler (though the communists were at least as much responsible, they did everything possible too undermind the central governments stability and wouldn't work with the SPD, - one must remember the Brownshirts/SA wasn't alone in the streets, the communists caused at least as much mayhem); certainly if Simson continued it was very limited in nature as Simson was never enthusiastic about arms production.
 
Thanks, the pictures are not clear enough to identify what these are, most are just stocks (many with b/r by side), apparently only the ones in the front of picture two are complete rifles, and still it is unclear what configuration these are. Anyway, there is little evidence significant numbers or G98's were converted to 98b, certainly few rifles showing this process have survived and neither have many non-Simson 98b configuration stocks been discovered either... BSW did make a good number of G98 configuration ordnance spare stocks, but no one else that I recall..

Anyway, I see no signs of a bolt cutout or sidesling arrangement, though in both pictures most stocks are showing the left side, which is unhelpful in this process. I attached scans of the pictures, had the quality of these pictures been better something might be revealing, but these poor quality reproductions it is largely guessing. Guessing, I would say this is a picture of HZa Spandau upgrading and rebuilding Gewehr98's, they were very active in this activity and even made some modified components for the process.

***It seems from observations that when conducting conversions, the desire was to convert G98 straight to 98k, not to a 98b, not sure there are many known cases of G98 to 98b conversions, possibly SS jobs as they were mongrels (Mongols as well), but the HZa would generally take the shortest route, which was to keep it G98, but when opportunity arose they would go full 98k, rarely true conversion, more typically recycling the receiver, but little evidence ordnance spare 98b stocks were made (at least as far as I have seen)

***Lastly Simson did not do reworks or upgrades, at least that is my opinion based upon historical context and observations. commercial firms did not engage in reworking except in special cases, new rifles that were returned for problems, in the case of BLM reworking-converting foreign rifles was contracted; possibly when specialized items were contracted for the purpose, - some say P08 and MG's Simson played a part in were serviced at their factory, I doubt it was extensive, but special cases possibly (early on); for a commercial company to involve itself in such work would run against practice (profitability), overhauling worn rifles would be enormously counterproductive (the 1929 98b conversions to 98k Simson was ruled out due to costs involved) . In Imperial times the arsenals handled this work, or in special case commercial firms were contracted for this process, even in the cases of Brno and SDP recycling receivers, both were state owned (SDP was publicly held in a sense, some "private investment" / stock such as could exist under an totalitarian state - which is to say the concept of private property was meaningless) and controlled and could indulge in such activity, further it was late in the war and by 1944 all pretense of private property or free will was removed (the true character of the NS state was in full display - which revealed national socialism as an ideology of the far left, essentially a form of bolshevism in every meaningful way)
 

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Reworks

If the rifles in the second photo are completed, they don’t have lower swivel attachments under the butt so they are probably 98b rifles even though you can’t see the stock pass-throughs in the photos.

If you trust the guy who wrote the book, you should probably trust his description. He probably looked at the photos with a magnifying glass to confirm his captions and the archives likely had that information with the photo files.
 
If the rifles in the second photo are completed, they don’t have lower swivel attachments under the butt so they are probably 98b rifles even though you can’t see the stock pass-throughs in the photos.

If you trust the guy who wrote the book, you should probably trust his description. He probably looked at the photos with a magnifying glass to confirm his captions and the archives likely had that information with the photo files.

There are tons of errors in the book, and stuff thats flat out wrong, but its also got tons of good info, you have to know what to take as truth, and what not to.
 
Unreliable book?

There are tons of errors in the book, and stuff thats flat out wrong, but its also got tons of good info, you have to know what to take as truth, and what not to.

I’m not familiar with the book. If it has many errors, has the author been advised so he can make corrections? I guess the book isn’t worth buying.

Of course the photos can’t be wrong, only misinterpreted.
 

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