Third Party Press

Thick font arr43 with a rare tool.

FYI, numeric codes are early, letter codes post 1940. Look at what you just posted. For the numeric code the company is listed as

Kyffhäuser Hütte - KH
Kyfhäuserhutte - Ky

If the company changed its official name between 35-36 when the KH and Ky changed as this list suggest it could be the explanation.

You have to be careful, it is Ky and bot KY, there is a difference and distinction. And if a comparison between ayw and Ky tools doesn’t convince you they are exactly the same, then not sure what evidence will.


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Here is a very interesting page about the history of the Kyffhäuserhütte firm from its founding to 1945: http://www.artern-stadt.info/15.html
It provides a lot of very interesting data, among others, the military material produced, notice the 1941 entry on military production...

1941: - Die Rüstungsproduktion umfasst unter anderem Flak-Geschützlafetten 2cm, Sonder-anhänger für Lafetten, Riegelminen, Gewehrreinigungsgeräte, Granaten sowie Ersatzteilkisten aus Holz und Blech. Über die Fabrikation von Pumpen für U-Boote wird verhandelt.

Antoni
 
FYI, numeric codes are early, letter codes post 1940. Look at what you just posted. For the numeric code the company is listed as

Kyffhäuser Hütte - KH
Kyfhäuserhutte - Ky


If the company changed its official name between 35-36 when the KH and Ky changed as this list suggest it could be the explanation. You have to be careful, it is Ky and bot KY, there is a difference and distinction. And if a comparison between ayw and Ky tools doesn’t convince you they are exactly the same, then not sure what evidence will.

Yes...I can see where the KH & Ky abbreviations would seem to fall logically into place. In effect, neither marking was an assigned code at all, but rather abbreviations for each of the facilities. It would also help explain why neither marking was found in association with either "sources" from the information presented in Preuss' book taken from the code directories....only a number code and later, 3 letter alpha code. Excellent detective work...
 
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KH or Ky are simply not a code, but rather an abbreviation / initials.

You can find many companies that never used a code, but only initials.
Like H.R.E..
H.R.E: has nothing to do with the code "hre"!
"hre" in lower cases is the code for C.W. Motz u. Co., Brandenburg an der Havel
"HRE" in upper cases are for Heinrich Ritter, Esslingen (still in use in 1958!)

or have a look at AJACK = A. Jackenkroll, Berlin. They never used a code on their scopes.
 
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Another question Andrew had- why would Kyffhäuserhütte use cans coded arr41-arr4. We do know Appel used arr code cans quite a bit as well and they certainly had capacity. We know from the WaA20 inspection. I had a thought about Ky dropping manufacture of cans in 41 - perhaps their stamping machinery was repurposed to another product more critical for the war effort than cleaning kit tins- have we ever decided if Braunschweig got the tooling and such from them, and maybe cemented the reciprocal relationship? It’s very convenient that when cans appear marked arr they disappear marked Ky. Food for thought, I think that has been discussed before, I didn’t dream it up.


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.... Ky dropping manufacture of cans in 41 - perhaps their stamping machinery was repurposed to another product more critical for the war effort than cleaning kit tins- have we ever decided if Braunschweig got the tooling and such from them, and maybe cemented the reciprocal relationship?

Yes, we thought/discussed about that in the past. :happy0180:
Let me have a look for the thread ....
 
What are your concerns about "Ky" being Kyffhäuserhütte? Thanks

Some thoughts ..... As already stated I am not convinced Ky is Kyffhäuserhütte. And as previously stated KH and Ky are not letter codes. There are abbreviations for a company. Wolfgang gave a couple of good examples. There are many others. These abbreviations seem to have been used by many producers of sheet metal products (and other items). The abbreviations usually include parts of the firm name and often end with the location of the concern. They are also also usually in all capital letters. Some examples -

CFL - Carl Feldhaus Aluminium-und Metallwerke, Lüdenscheid
DMN - Deutsche Metallwerke AG, Neustadt
ET - Eisenhüttenwerke, Thale
HWP - Hermann Wuppermann, Pinneberg
JSD - J.Schmalzeder Erben, Dresden
RFI - Rudolf Fissler KG, Idar-Oberstein
SMM - Süddeutsche Metallwarenfabrik, Mussbach

There are scores, probably hundreds of other examples. Granted KH works fairly well but for the Kyffhäuserhütte portion of the name only. But what about the complete name Aktien-Maschinenfabrik Kyffhäuserhütte, Artern? Would not AMK or AKA or AMA or MKA or even AMKA be more in line with the other examples? The same might be argued for the Ky abbreviation. If two letters only, with emphasis on the Kyffhäuserhütte I would think KA for the name and location. Please understand that I am not suggesting that these abbreviations followed a strict set of enforced rules but there does seem to be a pattern which KH and Ky do not fit.

I also have concerns about the ayw code change. Kyffhäuserhütte was assigned the ayw code in late 1940. If Ky was Kyffhäuserhütte than wouldn't their code have changed to ayw on cans in 1940? Or at least the code would have been changed by 1941? But there are no ayw cans, only Ky1940 and Ky1941. We can examine a similar situation with Mundlos. Their ab code was also issued in 1940. And we find most of the items that year remain marked Mundlos 1940 with transition to the ab40 code late that year as ab40 cans and components (although rare) are documented. By 1941 Mundlos had fully converted to the ab code. If Kyffhäuserhütte was Ky they did not make the code change to ayw on their cans in either 1940 or 1941. I understand there can be a number of valid and logical reasons for not making the code change. This said, I am troubled by the fact that the code WAS changed for ALL of their components as ayw1941 chains, oilers, and HKW are all very well known. This creates a conclusion that if Ky was Kyffhäuserhütte than for whatever reasons they maintained the Ky code on their cans only while switching to the new ayw code for all of their other rg34 pieces.

In a previous post Mike indicates that it is important to not the difference and distinction between Ky and KY. I agree. Yet I find it quite interesting that the cans and HKW are always marked Ky while the chains and oilers are marked KY. Probably a different conversation for another day .....

Certainly an interesting thread here with good discussion.
 
Thanks!
Very good to know exactly what your concerns are about.
Sooner or later we will find an answer. :argue: or maybe not :googlie
 
I don't wish to add another piece to this great puzzle but...

Has anyone thought that why KH/KY cleaning chains only present the Waffenamt WaA225 uninterrupted from 1935 until 1941/42? All these RGKs observed by me show only this Waffenamt -never seen on the tin cans, nor on the HKW or oilers- and the question arises about...why a different Waffenamt ?
During the pre-war years, this company -I assume it is the Kyffhäuserhütte firm- was assigned different inspection Waffenamt teams that supervised and officially accepted the Rg34 kits. The Waffenamt numbers observed on their cans, indicating acceptance of the finished Rg34s are:

1935 - WaA109
1936 - WaA265
1937 - WaA265/442
1938/39 - WaA442
1940/41 - WaA57

Taking into account that the Inspection teams were officially assigned to the factories by the Heereswaffenamt, changes in destination to the teams were made from time to time. Observing the different Waffenamt numbers on the tin cans, it is clear that were various changes in the Waffenamt team asigned to Kyffhäuserhütte during the pre war years, but not one with regard to the RGK. This could suggest that the RGKs were manufactured in another facilities, supervised in this case by the Waffenamt team number 225. Kyffhäuserhütte firm was a large company with different facilities, but all located at the same area in Artern, so the fact that to this firm were assigned two Waffenamt teams does not logical, especially when dealing with pieces for the same military material. Maybe here someone can add some light.

Searching for information on the Waffenamt number 225, the only reference for this Waffenamt that I have been able to find is a picture of a 3,7 cm cartridge case made in 1936, marked with the P199 manufacturer code that corresponds to Monheimer Ketten- u. Metallwareindustrie Pözt & Sand, a firm located in Monheim (Nordrhein-Westfalen). This firm was founded in 1876 as a factory for industrially manufactured chains, although the latter may just be a coincidence. Have any of you found the Waffenamt WaA225 on any other piece of equipment ? In November 1940 the letter code ayw was assigned to the Kyffhäuserhütte firm and the code auj to the Monheimer firm. This last code has never found stamped in any piece related to the Rg34.

Any thoughts ?
 

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...These abbreviations seem to have been used by many producers of sheet metal products (and other items). The abbreviations usually include parts of the firm name and often end with the location of the concern. They are also also usually in all capital letters. Some examples -

CFL - Carl Feldhaus Aluminium-und Metallwerke, Lüdenscheid

A very timely response, Slash...and thank you! It also explains why, when I looked up this code in the Paulas directory, the firm came up as a sawmill...and thus not likely to be making M31s, either!

https://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?45331-M31-Mess-Kit-Inquiry
 
....... My supposition is these eoz marked parts belong/originate from inside some larger armorers cleaning set of some sort and are not intended as armorers spare components. But as with other things pieces are spread to the wind by the people using them. ......

Searching the forums over here, I found photos showing a Waffenmeisterkiste with tools and gauges from Eckhardt & Lohkamp, Maschinen und Werkzeuge, Berlin. Code "gmm" Another candidate for fake? markings on Hülsenkopfwischern. That Waffenmeisterkiste came with oil brushes for the cleaning chain and cleaning brushes for the cleaning rod.

The more I think about your assumption, the more I like it.

But why would a toolmaker produce HKWs for his Waffenmeisterkisten, and did not order them from Appel or any other company that produced the RG34??
 
Another question for you RG34 collectors out there.
Are the any similarities between the eoz/gmm marked HKWs and the HKWs found in rbl marked kits?
Thanks
 
The one thing I do not like about the "gmm" coded HKWs is the marking appears freshly stamped. As such, the metal was displaced/raised around the outside of the letters and feels sharp to the touch. The vast majority of legitimate HKWs (maybe all?) have a wider and "softer" look (and feel) to the stamping. This may be a result of the die itself and letters/numbers being pressed into the material prior to the forming process and final polishing.
 
Another question Andrew had- why would Kyffhäuserhütte use cans coded arr41-arr4. We do know Appel used arr code cans quite a bit as well and they certainly had capacity. We know from the WaA20 inspection. I had a thought about Ky dropping manufacture of cans in 41 - perhaps their stamping machinery was repurposed to another product more critical for the war effort than cleaning kit tins-...

Regarding this question, I have always thought about the possibility that Kyffhäuserhütte stopped manufacturing the Rg34 cans in 1941 to focus on other more elaborate products at the same time that Braunsweigische Blechwarenfabrik, a firm specializing in the manufacture of steel containers, began the manufacture of the cans and also the assembly of complete kits. Despite this, Kyffhäuserhütte would continue to assemble kits, having enough experience and capacity to do so, using the cans provided by Braunsweigische Blechwarenfabrik and also making extensive use of other outsourced parts like RGKs and Oilers.

Another question for you RG34 collectors out there.
Are the any similarities between the eoz/gmm marked HKWs and the HKWs found in rbl marked kits?
Thanks

Interesting question... personally I have an rbl44 with a standard HKW without markings but presumably made by the Kyffhäuserhütte firm.

The one thing I do not like about the "gmm" coded HKWs is the marking appears freshly stamped. As such, the metal was displaced/raised around the outside of the letters and feels sharp to the touch.

I don't like these gmm HKWs at all either.
 

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