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Categorizing the "Lazy S" DHs

RyanE

Baby Face
Staff member
Categorizing the "Lazy S" DHs

So after looking at a lot of these I think we can break these into two (possibly three) types in two (possibly three) commercial acceptance patterns. Some good examples to follow in subsequent posts.

Type 1: "The Chin". Possibly the earliest type? Not super common.

Type 2: Seems to be the most commonly encountered, and the one most seem to try to fake.

Type 3 (maybe): The one on mine. Unfortunately for me, the more I look at these skulls I am beginning to think they are a problem. Can't find many examples and those I can find are mostly suspect, at best. I think I have to declare mine suspect as a result. It's super convincing unlike most of the fakes, so I don't know.

I initially thought this was just a weird stamping angle of the Type 2. But the S on top is different. Note how the ends of the S curve inwards. The Type 2 doesn't. Also, there are a few features that are distinct. The right eye and "comma head" on the right line of the skull. It's definitely a different die in any case.

Commercial proofing patterns:

Type 1: C/N stamps on the left side of receiver and frame. Breech proofed on top. Don't know about the toggle. Barrel has a C/N and a single digit number. Seems prevalent on the Type 1 skull. Possible some may have the breech proofed on the side. I thought I had pics of a good one in this pattern, but its a suspect Type 3 skull.

Type 2: Receiver proofed on the right, frame not proofed. Breech block and toggle proofed on the right also. Barrel has the 8,8m/m marking.

I am thinking these two patterns might be two different proof houses? Maybe Type 1 is Zella-Mehlis since they have an odd single digit on the barrel? Type 2 is Suhl? I don't know, could just be a early and late thing. Most (maybe all?) of the Luftwaffe E/9 commercial rework Lugers are proofed in the Type 1 style except barrels have caliber markings where the SS don't seem to.

Bottom line: I am very confident in Skull Types 1 and 2. Basically 100%. Type 3 not so much anymore. I think any outside of these 3 are almost certainly fake with most being easy calls.

Edit: Just to clarify that last sentence only applies to Lazy S. Not the 01 Skulls or the elusive (or maybe fake) + Skull.
 
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Type 1: "The Chin"
 

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Type 2: The common skull
 

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Type 3: The suspect skull.

I don't have good pictures of most of these. But all except mine have something odd. The red background 1917 is an Erfurt 1917 with Police markings (no mods) and no commercial proofing. The 1918 has both types of commercial proofing and though it appears to have an Imperial FP on the barrel. The other 1917 has a suffix on the frame SN.

The more I look at it the more it bothers me. Either all this commercial proofing on these is fake, or the Skull is good. This style of commercial proofing simply does not exist on military Lugers. I couldn't find any that had the proofing but no skull.
 

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Great work! What we should do is post known good lazy S skulls from Gew conversions. I can tell you they aren’t all the same.

To me, the idea of finding enough reworked military P.08’s with the correct commercial proofing to create these would be extremely difficult. I suspect the last type is a variant. Let me see if I can put together some examples from the rifles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
After reading just about everything I can find on both luger forums about these, then subsequently reading the posts here, I concur gents with your takes on them. Excellent work Ryan in attempting to catalogue them. When you see these next to each other, clear contrasts start to develop. Also, the really, really bad ones stand out even more. I agree that 1 & 2 are likely legit, and I don't get really good vibes from number 3.
 

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