1935 K98 Bayonet Frog

[ronhoney]

I just picked up a matching 44asw bayonet & scabbard, serial 4778z. It came with an almost Black (probably originally brown) Frog with 4 Brass rivets & cutout for strap (but strap is missing). I could barely make out the 1935, but after cleaning & treating I'm pretty sure this is what the makers mark says:

V. SCHONEBECK (2 dots over O) (corrected the spelling)
BERLIN-NEUKOLLN (2 dots over O)
1935

Anyone ever heard of this maker? Do I have something rare?

Thanks in advance for any info.

Ron

 

[Slash]

Hello Ron and welcome to the forum. Sorry but I do not have this maker in my files. The impressed markings on leather goods can be very difficult to decipher. Photos of the frog and its markings would be very helpful. For that matter, pics of the bayonet would be great as well. Always nice to see new additions posted here!

 

[ronhoney]

Pics of the 1935 frog

Here's some pics of the frog. With a 30X jewelers magnifier, I can make out all the lettering except the BERLI in Berlin, but since NEUKOLLN is a section of Berlin & the "N" is visible before the hyphen, I'm guessing it's marked BERLIN-NUEKOLLN.

There appears to be a Nazi Eagle below the top right rivet & I can make out a "G" as the 1st letter of a possible mfg code. Below that is a rectangular stamping with what seems to be Block lettering; 1st letter looks like an "M".

 

[ronhoney]

Pics of 1944 e&f hoerster k98 bayonet that was in frog

Here's the matching bayonet & scabbard. Has a really rough finish & looks like the blade was sharpened at one time; very little bluing remains on bayonet or scabbord. WaA 519 on Pommel, finial, & under flash guard.

 

[AndyB]

Bayonet looks ok, unfortunally there is some sharpening. The frog is nice, but probably readable only by very large magnifying, brass rivets speaks for middle 30ies, the additional stamps could be remains of old unit markings?

 

[ronhoney]

Update on 1935 k98 frog

Moderator at MauserCentral Forum (Marysdad) indicates:

This pattern of frog was classified as #311 by Carter. I haven't found any info on the maker. 1935 is the earliest year that Carter documented for the #311 frog. The brown frog with brass rivets is most likely used by the Air Force, which, in 1935, was reconstituting under cover of civil aviation. Carter documented only one of these brass rivet frogs, and it had a 1936 date (the vast majority have aluminum rivets). The odd markings on the reverse are likely unit or school marks, which was something frequently found on Air Force frogs. Really nice frog (and great pics!). It's a keeper.

Some additional research by me:

My research found a Carl-August Von Schonebeck, who was a WWI ace in Richthofen's Flying Circus who rose to rank of Major General in WWII (he was captured in 1945). Neukolln (section of Berlin) had many Jewish leather businesses that were either shut down or had their ownership transferred to a proper German (Aryan) in the 1930s. A Humboldt University database showed one Jewish Shoe Factory & Leather Works had it's ownership transferred in 1933. I've requested info from them on who the business was transferred to (thinking it might be Carl-August Von Schonebeck or his family). Will share any info I receive.

 

[AndyB]

Nice research about the maker, the LW assigned i have doubts about it, as there dont used in majority the frogs with securing strap, which was this later reworked. Anyway it could be real too but certainly probably not in 1935 and most real there should be a LBA stamp anywhere?.best regards,Andy
I dont known what was there unit or a eagle stamp??, by eagle stamp,when real it could be a police unit frog tonly You could examine in reality what is there stamped,when possible.

 

[Slash]

Thanks for posting the pics. I have to agree with Andrej on the Luftwaffe issue. There is no correlation between brass rivets and Luftwaffe usage. Almost all German frogs made prior to 1936 will have brass rivets. Same to some extent with the brown color. Yes, some brown frogs are noted with Luftwaffe unit markings but others are not. Black frogs are observed with the same markings also. Just because a frog is brown in color does not make it Luftwaffe issue. Although the markings are illegible in the pics it does look like a partial eagle and another marking in a rectangle. These type of markings suggest Police issue to me.

 

[ronhoney]

1935 von Schonebeck Frog maker

I heard back from Humboldt University in Berlin. They checked the database of Jewish businesses in Berlin that had ownership transfer, but found that the company Reh & Praedel, though it did change ownership in 1933, did not change its name - at least not till 1939. However, they did find a Cornelius von Schonebeck Leathertrading company in the Berlin directory in Neukolln in 1935 (the only von Schonebeck in the directory), so I'm 95% confident that my frog was made by this company.

Moderator at MauserCentral Forum (Marysdad) indicates:

This pattern of frog was classified as #311 by Carter. I haven't found any info on the maker. 1935 is the earliest year that Carter documented for the #311 frog. The brown frog with brass rivets is most likely used by the Air Force, which, in 1935, was reconstituting under cover of civil aviation. Carter documented only one of these brass rivet frogs, and it had a 1936 date (the vast majority have aluminum rivets). The odd markings on the reverse are likely unit or school marks, which was something frequently found on Air Force frogs. Really nice frog (and great pics!). It's a keeper.

Some additional research by me:

My research found a Carl-August Von Schonebeck, who was a WWI ace in Richthofen's Flying Circus who rose to rank of Major General in WWII (he was captured in 1945). Neukolln (section of Berlin) had many Jewish leather businesses that were either shut down or had their ownership transferred to a proper German (Aryan) in the 1930s. A Humboldt University database showed one Jewish Shoe Factory & Leather Works had it's ownership transferred in 1933. I've requested info from them on who the business was transferred to (thinking it might be Carl-August Von Schonebeck or his family). Will share any info I receive.