An oddly placed c/RC

[Nabs]

An oddly placed c/RC and some puzzling questions

Hey all. I am looking for some clarification in trying to explain the c/RC that is stamped on the butt plate of my Kar98a. It is stamped just above the the bottom screw but just below the acceptance mark and it is off set to the left a little. I also figured I would ask some burning questions related to my Kar98a that searches on the internet and inquiries on other forums as well as into books such as Mauser Military Rifles of the World and Rifle and Carbine 98 could not fully answer.

Since this Kar98a is possible Imperial/Weimar rebuilt, I'm not sure if their inspectors of the time put the mark on or it hails back to her Imperial days.

I tried taking a picture but the stamp is rather small and had for my camera to focus in on it.

Thanks for any insights.

On a seperate note (rather than starting a new topic) I wanted to inquire as to any possible reason why my Kar98a is mix-master of parts ? Aside from the barrel and receiver, and butt plate, stock, and bayonet lug, every other part is mis-matched but every part is Imperial in origin (except for the cocking piece which displays a Third Reich WaA77 and the firing pin which is Czech marked).

I can only guess that, considering her serial block (1918 R block), that she was pulled together with salvaged componets off of other Kar98as that were damaged as some of the major parts (bands, band screws, and stock) have damage but not enough as to render the part useless. If this is true, she may have seen minimal service in 1918 and was simply inventoried for the Reichswehr in 1920 (she is also 1920 marked).

It is also possible she is Weimar rebuilt from spare parts as there appears to be a Weimar eagle under the pistol grip (along with a single c/B) and the usual Weimar eagles on the right side of the stock with "1920" on the left side.

Some parts, like the cocking piece and firing pin, are rather tough to explain. Perhaps she saw Third Reich service in some capacity ? There is also an unidentified proof mark on the receiver, one that fellow collectors have been unable to pick off. It may explain some possible foreign post WW2 service but again I am not sure. The receiver, was, at one point, polished or sand blasted. This appears to have occured after all proof marks to the receiver had been applied as all the stamps are worn, some barely visible.

The overall condition of the bluing, stock, bore, and crown tell me this carbine was hardly used after WW1.

On the upside, you really have to admire the state and private firms construction of these carbine parts. Even though the majority of the parts came from other carbines, they all fit and work flawlessly. A true testament to German workmanship of the day.

She is not unit marked to any Freikorps, Reichswehr, or police unit (bit odd I think), would she have served with any Reichwehr units during maneuvers in the mid to late 1920s or perhaps a police unit and was simply not marked ? As for the Third Reich, I read that Kar98as that survived in service up to this point were used as training aids, would this be likely considering the WaA marked cocking piece for my Kar98a ? What other roles would the Kar98a play in general for the Weimar Republic and Third Reich ?

 

[Loewe]

The c/RC would just represent a problem or out of specification aspect with the buttplate that was eventually resolved. It would have been there from the beginning and not sign of rework.
It would date to Imperial era.

Mismatching of “small” parts is common even for authentic rifles worked on during both wars, however a rework from the interwar period would be re-serialed, - actually re-serialed more extensively than originally in the Imperial era. Weimar era reworks often have the full serial added to the bands etc.. many are full scrub & re-numbers, really totally refurbished rifles.

Quality varies depending on time, facility, and conditions but generally if your rifle is mismatched it wasn’t because of some expediency during the interwar period. It is possible mismatched parts found their way onto the rifle during one of the wars, but how does one prove this? Usually one can get a feel for it by the rifles overall condition and how the parts wear and finish patterns appear but as MarkW once wrote:

“Depending on the time frame and circumstances, replaced parts can be both carefully fitted and renumbered to match, or can be used or replacement parts simply thrown onto the rifle to make it serviceable. While mismatched parts are always suspect, “righteous” rifles can be found with mismatched parts, and such examples will always be worth about the same as a normal mismatch of uncertain parentage.”

As for any Kar.98a, the 1920 mark shows it stayed in German service and was government property during the effort to remove “military small arms” from civilian hands (a very short period).

Just some general comments on the “1920 property mark” and not directed at you Nabs.

The “1920” property mark wasn’t some official inventory marking, as in “controlled” item monitored by the IAMCC or the German counterparts (there was a German counterpart to the IAMCC). It had a rather narrow purpose and collectors give the marking far to much importance today, as the only thing it tells you is that during this small period of time, the rifle had been government property- not the organization (Reichsheer, Reichsmarine or any of the Police or “Police like” organizations that existed in 1920-1921), not that it stayed in government hands, not that it has been reworked, and certainly not some “inventory control” measure being monitored.

Anyway, I go into this in detail for the next MRJ…

Oh, and full interchangeability was never really achieved by the Germans, parts will interchange readily but its hit or miss, - try swapping sleeves between 5 or six bolt bodies, or swapping 98a stocks between rifles? Very often they do not really swap out all that perfectly!

 

[Nabs]

I wonder what would have happened to make the butt plate receive a c/RC stamp ? I have only encountered them on the right side of the receivers of my Imperial rifles, mainly over the "Hardness" acceptance stamp.

The Kar98a may be mis-matched but all the parts are in Imperial trim (correct bluing for ones that should have it and the in the white finish for those that shouldn't). There appears to be no re-numbering of parts either. The Seller mentioned he picked up the Kar98a in the 70s and held onto since, not firing it or cleaning it since then. It was a real pleasure to take her apart and clean her, probably being the first person to do so in quite some time.

I remember reading that the last major shipment of Kar98as came into Canada/US in the 1970s, any idea where these came from ? It may explain the weird marking on the receiver.

She sports the usual handling marks and late war, sand blasted finish on her major parts (barrel, receiver, trigger guard assembly, floor plate, and front/rear bands). The indication of repairs and somewhat damaged parts may indicate she was pulled together in a hurry. Considering her serial block of "R" in 1918 Danzig, this may hold true. I read that the German army, even up to the last days of WW1, would get as many arms as possible out of the remaining arsenals and my Kar98a may have been one of the last ones to come out of Danzig.

As far as the 1920 property marking goes, it sounds like she was in government hands and wasn't taken home by a WW1 veteran and later given back to the state. Considering the lack of Weimar security force or police force markings, I am guessing she stayed at some government arsenal or depot for her Weimar days.

As for the interchangeability of parts, I am counting on this chance to restore a cut down Gewehr 98 that has a somewhat shot out, cut down barrel with a full length Gewehr 98 barrel in very good condition. Lets hope it works out as I had a disappointing experience with another Gewehr 98 of mine. She had a forced matched rear sight but mis-matched adjustment base with one adjustment tab matching the rifle and the other matching the adjustment base. The rear sight simply would not function in the manner that you can easily adjustment it from 400m to 2000m and back again. Both hands and a lot of upper body strength would not even move the tab or rear sight. I then removed the rear sight and replaced it with one I had in inventory and now it functions flawlessly. Interestingly, the replacement adjustment base will not fit with the forced matched rear sight, the same goes for the replacement rear sight and mis-matched base. Lets hope it works out for my barrel!

Lastly, I read Kar98as that made it to Third Reich service were used as training rifles, any other notable roles they served in ?

 

[Loewe]

No, I do not follow importers very much.. the Mauser side of Gunboards have several collectors that are knowledgeable on importers/exporters, you might try there?

Things were incredibly chaotic in Germany at the end of the war, however I suspect Danzig was one of the most stable of the lot? It was specifically covered in Versailles, and under the protection of the League. Facilities in large cities, with large numbers of industrial workers were especially in danger. DWM and Spandau had troubles as early as 1917 with strikes and civil disruption.

Very little is known about Danzig really, even Dr. Storz knows very little about the facility.. I would go into the details of postwar Danzig but I am working on revamping my Danzig and Erfurt articles for the MRJ with new information I have come across.

If it has a 1920 property mark, it stayed in German hands at least through 1921 and probably through the early nazi period. It was illegal for Germany to ship any war surplus out of Germany and "generally" they followed this.. they did sneak material through the Dutch (until the Entente shut that down) and they snuck rifles to a few countries- the soviets- but I am not sure how successful the clandestine arms sales were. There was a lot of pressure on Germany in this period from the British especially who made every effort possible to stop the spread of arms to other countries. (France was surprisingly ok with the sales if they went to her friends..)

Yes, most period pics of the 98a in the nazi period are in Police hands or training/shooting range pics. It probably served in rear area support roles too but "mostly" it seems to have been relegated to Police and training duty.

I remember reading that the last major shipment of Kar98as came into Canada/US in the 1970s, any idea where these came from ? It may explain the weird marking on the receiver....

I read that the German army, even up to the last days of WW1, would get as many arms as possible out of the remaining arsenals and my Kar98a may have been one of the last ones to come out of Danzig.

As far as the 1920 property marking goes, it sounds like she was in government hands and wasn't taken home by a WW1 veteran and later given back to the state. Considering the lack of Weimar security force or police force markings, I am guessing she stayed at some government arsenal or depot for her Weimar days.

Lastly, I read Kar98as that made it to Third Reich service were used as training rifles, any other notable roles they served in ?

 

[Nabs]

I was quite surprised and disappointed with the one or two paragraphs about Danzig in Dr. Storz's book as half of my Imperial rifle collection comes from that arsenal. I can't blame him though as he obviously tried to locate information but couldn't find anything relevant. He does make up for it in the other sections relating to the Gewehr 98 and Kar 98. If you happen to come across anything of relevance to Danzig, I would be very much interested in hearing about it as I own a prewar 1905, early late war 1917 Gewehr 98s, and a late war 1918 Kar98a.

As far as the 1970s import, I will ask on Gunboards.

Thanks for the clarification, Simson.

 

[Nabs]

Oh, I forgot to mention. The hand guard on my Kar98a is quite interesting as the serial number appears to be written in pencil instead of being stamped in. The writing has faded and the way in which it was written makes it difficult to identify the serial number. When did the Germans start using this method for numbering their stocks and hand guards ?

 

[Loewe]

No way to tell, but penciling might be ok for a wartime rework or replacement.

Oh, I forgot to mention. The hand guard on my Kar98a is quite interesting as the serial number appears to be written in pencil instead of being stamped in. The writing has faded and the way in which it was written makes it difficult to identify the serial number. When did the Germans start using this method for numbering their stocks and hand guards ?