Third Party Press

Be careful. Fakers in our midst. gill120 Dave Gill please respond

mdarnell19

Beavis Moderator Intern
Guys, I try to warn collectors who want to purchase K98k snipers to be careful. I encourage them to get opinions from several collectors before making a large purchase. Posting pictures here is the best option. This is a good idea regardless of what you are purchasing. There are many out there who will take advantage of others. Sadly we have members here who are not honest. Be warned, anytime a member wants to only communicate via PM or email and tells you to not share the item they are offering you with others or mention their name, more then likely they are hiding something.

Well sadly we have such a member in our midst who attempted to do this. And worse, he tried to fool a moderator. gill120 (Dave Gill) replied via PM to CanadianAR in regards to his request to buy a sniper rifle. What gill120 offered him was a Three Hole rifle that he purchased from Richard Milton at the last SOS. gill120 purchased the rifle as a three hole rifle and then offered it to Andrew as a Long Side Rail sniper with a mount added to the receiver. Dave Roberts recognized the rifle and confirmed this with Richard Milton. In the past gill120 has sold other questionable items but nothing could ever be proven.

Well now I would love to here Dave Gill's explanation for why he purchased a Three Hole rifle and then offered it to a moderator as a Long Side Rail sniper. Dave??? This is your chance to explain yourself.

Like so many here, I love German sniper rifles. And I won't sit by and watch people destroy our beloved hobby to make money. I encourage everyone here to call out anything fraudulent you see and help protect new collectors coming into the hobby.

Thanks to Andrew and Dave Roberts for catching this. I am sure they will come along and comment with any addition information and pictures.
 

DaveDavis

Senior Member
What you do with things you own is no one's business but yours, unless or until you make the decision to part with an item, and then fail to make known that you made modifications to your collectible to enhance it's value, in this case creating a bogus sniper, apparently solely in order to make a profit upon selling it.

Doing so is, and was, both deceitful and dishonest.

There is NO GRAY AREA when this is done.

If the gun in question had been correctly identified as a new built replica LSR, not one of us would have any right to bitch, since it was his property, to do with as he wished, but IT WAS HYPED AS AN ORIGINAL and therein lies the PROBLEM......
 

Intruder196

Senior Member
This is a very objective assessment and to a degree, I agree. Let’s say someone gets a really unique barreled action. Do they display it like that, or do they add other appropriate parts to display it the way it WOULD have looked when built? These things are all up to individual decision.
.

Now that you mention this, I have a bnz45 that I bought as a barreled receiver with everything but a stock, hand guard and barrel bands. I’m slowly finding original Kriegsmodel parts to return it to as close as I can to its original configuration. I’ll post pictures of it when I’m done one day. I see no problem doing this because it was useless to keep as is when I bought it. I plan on disclosing it to prevent somebody in the future from claiming it to be all original.

I recall reading the tank driver incident some years back. Maybe it was on the old defunct G43 forum? It’s good that this sort of thing gets caught red handed
 

jsz

Senior Member
Jeff
Thats scary that You bring up the tank driver dilemma !!!!!!!
Me and a friend just brought up that same Subject Yesterday , such things are very hard or if at all ever really forgotten by other collectors !!!!!

Dave, that is ironic. To me, these instances make me sad that someone would compromise friendships, history, goodwill and other things for some financial reward. I have spoken about this in the past, I mentored a younger kid in my area in collecting. He chased me for years to sell him a P38, which in time I did. A year later, I was looking at P38's on Gunbroker and saw one that looked very familiar, so I checked my records and bingo the one I had sold him. Here was the catch it now sportered matching numbered capture papers, that it did not possess when I owned the pistol for over 20 years. Called him on it and essentially told me to "fuck off ". So I treat this person as if he has the Black Death and stay far away. He runs a gun and military shop and hits the larger shows including the SOS. He used to run with Scotty B....., easy to follow the trail of manipulation and money.
Still some very great people I have met in the 45 years plus of doing this and will always appreciate the knowledge shared and friendships.
Jeff
 

Absolut

Senior Member
I have a friend that never can afford a real sniper rifle. He instead purchased damaged original parts and bits and assembled a sniper rifle over the years that would fool anyone. I can't blame him for doing this since I know he can't afford a real one and of course one can also say it is the result of hoarders who can afford them and don't stop at a single piece but rather buy up everything and as a result also drive up the prices, hence it is his only way to get as close as possible to an original one. The big difference to the mentioned case though is that he won't sell this for profit, despite he could and as mentioned would anyway fool anyone. I'm however sure he is not the only one who did this (for similar or different reasons) and thinking very long term we simply can't outrule that an owner of such a piece maybe will have an accident and pass away without telling anyone his rifle is made up, so it then gets sold by whoever as an original and from there on will remain in the market as "an original".

My only potential solution to this was to come up with something that would be like a "gun database", with the help of collectors to over the time by pictures and written proofs document certain rifles when they pop up, best with pictures, because this will over the years will turn into a great database to hopefully a certain point of time where documented guns exceed the undocumented ones and we can over its lifetime document any changes. This of course is hell of work and requires also great investment, but it could potentially also pay off in one day if like for example detailed data and pictures of a rifles previous life is only supplied to those who pay a small fee.
 

DaveDavis

Senior Member
In another 100 years even Mitchell's Mausers are 100% original, but that's another story, and none of us will be here to worry about it......
 

CanadianAR

Maple Syrup Mod Eh
I was offered the gun. I am no sniper expert at all. A real mount on a real three hole gun would likely
Fool me. Luckily I was instantly put off by the bolt. So I asked a few trusted friends. They agreed the bolt was bad. And informed me the buttplate was bad. Then Dave wondered about it being Richards 3 hole and did the detective work. Sad really that a good 3 hole gun is now ruined.
 

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M1903A3

Keeper of the Def's Head
Not cool. I’ve suspected they were in here with us. I don’t understand the need to “boost” things in order to make money with K98s. There are enough buyers and the demand is robust, so an honest gun has an excellent chance of selling for a decent price. There is no need to ruin guns/parts to try to maximize the individual sale!!!

Then again, the people doing this have no morals, so that may be the largest part of my disconnect. The energy and effort used to ruin things could also be applied to finding more good guns/parts to sell!


Sent from my top secret official Bunker of the Order of the Def’s Hed.
 

Aaron

Senior Member
What a shame, 3 hole rifles are in a way even more desirable than finished snipers.
 

mrfarb

No War Eagles For You!
I saw this rifle on Rich Milton’s table at the SOS about 3 years ago. I can confirm it was a 3 hole gun, no pin holes. So Rich sells it to Dave Gill and viola! It’s a sniper.

I’d love to hear how that happened.

It’s a shame. But Matt is correct, this is why you share photos of what people offer you. I’m going to give gill120 a chance to explain himself before I ban him for life. There’s nothing excuse for passing bad guns to our members. Trying to pass a made up LSR to a mod has to rank right up there with robbing a police station. I’m sure he thought he could get away with it since he bought it offline and there are no photos. He didn’t plan on Dave Robert’s, the human sniper rifle Rolodex.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Warrior1354

ax - hole
Ah I recognize that rifle. I remember seeing it at the SOS show before but it wasn't a long side rail sniper as Matt stated. To tell you the truth I almost bought it years ago because it was a unique variation. But I ended up buying something else at the show instead. Now I kind of regret not buying it. Mainly because a unique variation was ruined in the process to make a fake sniper rifle to deceive a fellow collector. What a shame.
 

Muncher 1953

Senior Member
Thanks to the experts for taking on this rather unpleasant task. As a new collector, and one with poor eyesight, I’m strongly attracted to rifles with optics. Problem for me is that honest rifles are at the upper end of my own tolerance level for spending on non-essential items, and when you add in the dishonesty factor, well, it just ruins the fun in all this.

Kudos for those defending the hobby!

THANK YOU!
 

edritchey

Member
Thanks to the experts for taking on this rather unpleasant task. As a new collector, and one with poor eyesight, I’m strongly attracted to rifles with optics. Problem for me is that honest rifles are at the upper end of my own tolerance level for spending on non-essential items, and when you add in the dishonesty factor, well, it just ruins the fun in all this.

Kudos for those defending the hobby!

THANK YOU!


So true and I feel the same way :(
 

BMWMilhist

Member
Really unfortunate, I remember that rifle from SOS as well. Hopefully this transparency will be a reminder of what this forum is about. Thanks for sharing gents.
 

bigwagon

Senior Member
Seems pretty ballsy/stupid to do this with a rifle that was obviously highly visible at a major collector show, and not even that long ago. Maybe he assumed they don't have internet way up north there in Canada?
 

MrB

Member
It's a shame to deliberately ruin a collectable piece of history in hopes of making a few bucks.

I am a relative newbie. On this forum, I have encountered mostly helpful and honest people that truly care about history. However, I have also come across some scumbags only interested in making money.

I would like to thank Dave Matt, Mike, Bruce and all the guardians of K98K's that are doing their best to keep history from being altered and destroyed.
 

NathanLM

Senior Member
I’ve been a member here for a long time now, not as long as some, but longer than many I venture to guess. This isn’t a place where fakery shenanigans often fly below the radar. Even the dumbest swindler should know better than to shit where he eats. But there are two points I would like to make:

1. Unimpeachable integrity is rare these days. I would guess that verbal embellishments, If not physical embellishments are more common than given credit. I imagine many have struggled when selling an item whether or not they should first pick apart their own item. Break it down to the minutia of flaws that they notice, when those flaws are barely noticeable at all. Especially to less experienced guys.

2. Maybe Gill is an outright liar, he humped the rifle from its original configuration and then tried to sell for something it’s not, all for the dollar. On the other hand, maybe this forum outs people prematurely. And this forum does it aggressively. Members I respect do this (hambone). I expect to be the subject of his ire and that of others, most of whom can form a much more eloquent argument that I!

Disclaimer: I don’t remember dealing with the D Gill guy and he is certainly not someone i have dealt with in the last few years.

Maybe I’m on a tangent not, but I’m deployed and have my first beer in months In me. I’m feeling Froggy
 

mrfarb

No War Eagles For You!
It’s been confirmed that Gill bought the rifle from Milton as a 3 hole rifle. It’s now offered by Gill as a sniper with pin holes drilled. Those are facts. It’s up to Gill to explain those facts to a degree that is acceptable as a collector. What’s happened here isn’t an embellishment of words in a description.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

alund

Senior Member
Would be nice to see the original description of the rifle and how it was proposed in the original message to our Canadian comrade... just to see the original “spin”
 

DaveDavis

Senior Member
Where there is money to be made by "ENHANCING'' a piece of history, there will always be those who will sell their honor, and integrity, for 30 pieces of silver....

Nothing in this world changes basic human nature......

Thirty pieces of silver was the price for which Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus, according to an account in the Gospel of Matthew 26:15 in the New Testament.
 

Winchester Cowboy

Senior Member
Wow. And a Big Ticket Price too I would imagine.
Glad it all worked out and no one got burned.
Great guys looking out for everyone on the Forum!
Thanks for posting.
 

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