'Experimental' SIG-Bergmann MP 18 - 20. Thoughts?

[heavy_mech]

As the title suggests the above item was offered for sale (and immediately sold) as 'rare' and 'original' by a well-known online Military Antique outlet. I'm not saying it's not, BUT I wonder others might think.

Original Rare German Pre-WWII Experimental SIG-Bergmann MP 18 - 20 Display Submachine Gun with Vertical Magazine Housing - Serial 73

Original Item: One-of-a-Kind. Just purchased from a private collector, this is a fantastic experimental SIG-Bergmann MP 18 - 20 Inert Display Sub Machine Gun, designed with a VERTICAL magazine well, instead of the usual horizontal. It was built using original parts on an original BATF compliant...

www.ima-usa.com

 

[mostpeople]

I’m skeptical, not enough pictures to get close to a determination. But great thing that sten mag worked out though right?

 

[heavy_mech]

I’m skeptical, not enough pictures to get close to a determination. But great thing that sten mag worked out though right?

Like Ham loves to say that 'it's just my opinion' but I also think the mag sleeve is Sten. Agan I don't know nor do I claim to but I have my doubts.

 

[Get_Em_Puppy]

As the title suggests the above item was offered for sale (and immediately sold) as 'rare' and 'original' by a well-known online Military Antique outlet. I'm not saying it's not, BUT I wonder others might think.

Original Rare German Pre-WWII Experimental SIG-Bergmann MP 18 - 20 Display Submachine Gun with Vertical Magazine Housing - Serial 73

Original Item: One-of-a-Kind. Just purchased from a private collector, this is a fantastic experimental SIG-Bergmann MP 18 - 20 Inert Display Sub Machine Gun, designed with a VERTICAL magazine well, instead of the usual horizontal. It was built using original parts on an original BATF compliant...

www.ima-usa.com

Sorry to bump an old post but I do have an answer for you.

This is a Chinese copy of the SIG Bergmann submachine gun that is being passed off as an experimental German weapon.

In 1920, Theodor Bergmann sold the production rights to the MP 18 to SIG in Switzerland. As a result of this deal, SIG manufactured a copy of the MP 18,III - NOT the MP 18,I - and sold it for export. The difference between the MP 18,I and the MP 18,III is that the former model fed from 32-round Luger drum magazines and the latter fed from Mauser box magazines of various capacities, though most commonly 30 or 50 rounds. These magazines use a double-position feed and are not the same as the later 32-round Schmeisser patent box magazines (as used in the MP 28), which use a single-position feed.

The unusual magazine feed you are seeing is not a Sten mag housing but actually the standard type used by the SIG Bergmann and MP 18,III. It is different to the MP 28 feed as it takes different magazines.

Several sales of SIG Bergmann submachine guns were made to China, beginning in 1922. The Chinese almost immediately reverse-engineered this gun and began to produce copies at many arsenals, including Tsingtao, Dagu, Hanyang, Guangdong, Jinling, and Jiangnan. Many of these were made with vertical magazine feeds instead of the standard horizontal feed. The SIG Bergmann was hugely popular in China but is often mistaken for the MP 18 or MP 28.

This is just a Chinese SIG Bergmann. All the serial stamps are in the same places and there is nothing here to suggest it is a German or Swiss prototype.

 

[Wilhelm]

More vindication for why I steer well clear of IMA.

 

[mauser99]

More vindication for why I steer well clear of IMA.

their motto should be ... "making up history as we go"

 

[Hambone]

their motto should be ... "making up history as we go"

I thought that was their motto. In my opinion.

 

[nirvana]

To be fair, does anyone believe that IMA has the knowledge to correctly ID this gun?

The wood does look Chinese, now that you mention it.

 

[KSH67]

To be fair, does anyone believe that IMA has the knowledge to correctly ID this gun?

The wood does look Chinese, now that you mention it.

Nope, but they do honor their return guarantee. I believe the China version as well

 

[mostpeople]

In business there has to be room for honest mistakes. If they get called on it and honor the money back gaurantee it should be no harm no foul.

 

[Fal Grunt]

In business there has to be room for honest mistakes. If they get called on it and honor the money back gaurantee it should be no harm no foul.

I totally agree, especially as a business person

HOWEVER.... IMA has a long standing history of... horrible salesmanship when it comes to historical accuracy. They are like a lot of companies that make some random identification up with no background. I lump IMA in with groups like Sportsmans Guide and Cheaper than Dirt. They don't know what it really is, it sorta looks French, and magically it's French Vietnam Surplus that never made it to the battle field. Just discovered in a warehouse!

 

[Get_Em_Puppy]

I would very much like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but in the product description they outline their process for concluding its German origin and there seems to be a certain amount of wish fulfillment going on.

For example their identification of this gun is almost wholly contingent on the idea that Heinrich Vollmer was instrumental in establishing the production of the Bergmann in China, therefore he must have based the Chinese version on a German-made prototype of his own design. This itself is a pretty huge leap in logic as they're basically just speculating on the existence of a mystery prototype that has never been mentioned by any sources at all. As far as I have been able to ascertain, there is no evidence that Vollmer was even involved in the production of the Chinese Bergmann - the only source I can find for this is a passage on Wikipedia that has now been deleted. I have read a few Chinese sources describing the production of the Bergmann in their country and never have I seen Vollmer's name crop up. Maybe there is somebody here who knows more about Vollmer to confirm or deny this?

Additionally IMA claim that the gun is "distinctively German" because of the serial numbers being stamped on every component. But the serial stamps are in all the same places as on the Chinese guns made at the Tsingtao Iron Factory and in the exact same font. IMA are working under the assumption that only the Germans would put in this much attention to detail but they gloss over one important thing: the Chinese were very good at copying even the most expensive and sophisticated foreign designs. Obviously this could differ greatly from factory to factory, but a lot of the submachine guns they made in the interwar period were almost indistinguishable from the real thing.

Clearly it is very tempting for any collector to speculate that an unusual item like this could be an ultra-rare German prototype, but at the end of the day Occam's Razor should be applied in the absence of documentary evidence or solid provenance. It looks Chinese, the Chinese made thousands of these, ergo it's probably Chinese.