Gewehrfabrik Oberndorf muzzle loading pistol - potentially Hessian m56 cavalry pistol

[Cyrano4747]

I picked this up cheap off gunbroker a year or so back and just now got around to getting some decent photos of it. I'd like the opinions of some of the forum members here on what, exactly, I've got. I've done some research and have a bit of my own conjecture, but I'd like a reality check from anyone who has some serious knowledge about these pre-Unification guns.

I'm going to break this up into three posts. First, some general pictures of the pistol and some general observations about features and condition. Next a post with more detailed pictures of specific markings. Finally, a third post with what I've found while digging around and some conjecture. There are going to be pictures of other guns not owned by me in that third post, so I'm breaking them up for clarity.

I'll also add that I took it completely down for the pictures - not a single screw un-turned - and made sure to get good photos of detail like the inside of the wood where the lock sits etc. So if there's a part you're curious about or a pic you want better detail on just ask, chances are I've got it and just didn't put it in here.

Anyways, without further ado, here it is:


And here's the whole reason I bought this in the first place:



What can I say I'm an absolute sucker for Oberndorf.

Condition, on the whole, is rough but not terrible. Doubly so because I grabbed it for a few hundred bucks. I'd actually seen this gun before and dug it up when researching a similar "GEWEHRFABRIK OBERNDORF" marked musket. Only then it was up on GB as a "napoleonic pistol" and priced at something ridiculous like $2000 or $3,000. I wish I'd gotten a screen grab of the actual auction, but I had no idea it would drop into my lap later for about a tenth of the price so I didn't bother. I did grab a few auction photos as reference, though.




I'll spare you the detailed analysis, but they're the same gun. In particular the repair to the base of the pistol grip is a tell, and they both have the same gouge in the metal on the side-plate left of the word "GEWEHRFABRIK." I'll note that it was obviously cleaned between then and now. Nothing too obnoxious, but still a little bit of a bummer.

Condition is over-all acceptable but not great. This gun led a hard life. In particular it shows a major repair to the base of the pistol grip, with a new piece of wood grafted in:


It's held in with some kind of resin plus a ton of little brass nails. Very firmly in there, decent workmanship on the repair. With the frontstrap removed you can see the join line between the two pieces of wood on the inside:



The other major oddity is the hammer. I strongly believe it to be a replacement. It's not consistent with other Oberndorf hammers I've seen, and frankly it's just crude. It has the feel of something that was knocked together by a blacksmith as a replacement part. I'm also fairly certain the nipple has been replaced at some point, as it looks fairly new.



Backside of the hammer. You can really see the rough forging work here. Compare that to the much higher quality of finishing work you can see on some of the lock parts peeking out below.



The barrel is rifled, albeit very shallowly. Whether that is because it was only cut that deep to begin with (possibly as a conversion process) or because it's been eaten by 175+ years of rust and neglect, I have no idea. Apologies for the sloppy fingers and workout shorts photo, this was really the only one I got where I caught the light right to show it - it's really faint.



The other bit, notable thing on this is the unit markings on the grip. Running laterally along it you have what I believe to be II RA104.


Below that and 90 degrees rotated you have what is either BB24 or RB24. The first letter is very faint and almost obliterated by a dent or chip that was sanded down. I go back and forth on whether I think it's R or B. If it was military I'd lean R for Regiment but for all I know it could be police or anything else.



The gun has a brass trigger guard and a brass nose cap. The nose cap is held in by a single screw that goes directly into the wood and has the front sight.



The trigger guard is attached by a hook at the rear, and a screw at the front that threads into the frontstrap.



The inside of the lock. I'll note that there are a lot of numbers on this gun and very few of them match each other. Mixed up in service? Mixed up during a conversion or rebuild at the factory? I have no idea. I will note later on, though, that I don't think this general pattern of weapon was invented out of thin air by someone else later on, as I've found a few examples which largely match this one in terms of features. So while it may be the percussion cap pistol version of a mixmaster, I don't think it's a fantasy piece or something made from a parts bin from multiple different models.

 

[Cyrano4747]

Now for some more detailed photos of markings.

First the barrel:



I'll note that the star marking, the number, and the faint remnants of whatever was to the top right of that number are consistent with the markings in the same area on the mystery Oberndorf rifle I have. You can spot them in this thread:

Oberndorf musket - not a Mauser, technically not from Germany, certainly not Imperial, probably still appropriate for this forum

Here's an oddball, and the oldest gun in my collection. A couple of years back I saw what was only described as an "Oberndorf civil war musket" on gunbroker. The gun itself is in terrible shape, as the pictures will show. At some point in its past it was cut down, the stock has been broken...

www.k98kforum.com

"94" on both the barrel below the woodline and on the breach block:



Crown stamp on the underside of the nose piece:



For reference, this is the front strap. You can see where the trigger guard attaches and the trigger comes through. And hoo boy was getting this out of that old, dry wood without damaging anything an adventure.



But that effort was rewarded, because on the inside, facing the gun, you have another crown stamp. This one a slightly different style than elsewhere:



The head of what, for lack of a better term, I'm going to call one of the action screws. It's fairly representative of the kind of numbering you can find across the screw heads on the gun. Lots of screws numbered "3" but none of that matches the barrel.



One more detail shot of the lock plate. Note the screw, flush but slotted, directly above the pin above the word "GEWEHRFABRIK." Keep that in mind for the next post, I believe that is where a safety was once upon a time. (a feature shared by that rifle in the other thread I posted)




Finally a shot of the wood minus any metal showing off the inlay for the action. Why? Because I did all that work and I'm going to show it off goddamnit. Nothing really interesting or identifiable, but I will say I was happy with the condition on the inside.

 

[Cyrano4747]

Now for the fun bit: wild conjecture!

Ok, not so wild. I've actually spent way more time than is advisable or healthy digging into this, but I'm hoping some of the people here will have deeper knowledge of the subject.

The Konigliche Waffenfabrik didn’t only manufacture for the Kingdom of Württemburg, but also did orders for some of the neighboring states. In particular you see Hesse getting a fair few of their guns. I’ve spent way too much time looking through books and forum posts on pre-unification blackpowder firearms from the general Rhineland area (plus a bit from Bavaria as the two cross-pollinate a bunch) and I won’t spend the time here to retrace all those steps. The summary is that the closest I’ve yet found is the gun highlighted in this forum post:

Blankwaffen, Informationen - Fakten - Diskussionen - Thema: Hessen-Darmstadt, Kavalleriepistole M 1856 Minié

alles zu alten Blankwaffen, das Forum zu Schwert, Säbel, Degen, Bajonett, Dolch, Seitengewehr, Messer und mehr

www.deutsches-blankwaffenforum.de

(not my gun, from the above link)



It is described as a Hessen-Darmstadt Kavalleriepistole M 1856 System Minié, with a note that it was re-manufactured at Oberndorf (presumably a conversion from an older flintlock design). The basic design of the pistol, including the small parts like screws (numbering etc) is the same as mine, with the one big difference being a safety that mine lacks, however mine has the screw hole for it. This one doesn’t have the side-plate marked as Gewehrfabrik Oberndorf like mine, but it does have the same crown stamp on the brass muzzle piece.



Most intriguingly, it also has some kind of unit information on the pistol grip in roughly the same place as mine and, while the fonts aren’t identical, they’re close enough to being “of a type” that I would suspect some relation. What really perked me up, though, was that the three stamps it has read “I R.D.146” “R.A.169” and “I R.E.106.” The person in that forum post translated those as all being 1st Reiterregiments, with the squadron and weapon number changing, with the second letter being the squadron number – so I R.D.146 would be 4th squadron, weapon 146, I R.A.169 would be 1st Squadron, weapon 169, etc.



The top stamp on my gun reads II RA 104. If it is related to that other gun, then 2nd Reiterregiments, 1st Squadron, weapon 104 would be what that means. Unfortunately I wasn’t able to dig up of there was a II Reiterregiment in the armed forces of Hessen-Darmstadt (or later the Grand Dutchy).

Another interesting data point. I found an old forum post with someone asking for help identifying a very similar pistol, only this one had been worked over by someone as a decorate piece (lots of middling engraving). Engraving aside, all of the metal bits look the same as mine. The pistol grip has a metal cap on it similar to the m56 discussed above. It also has the same crown stamp on the brass muzzle piece as mine does.

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/help-iding-german-pistol.103472/

Note that it has a brass cap on the end of the pistol grip, similar to the m56 discussed above, where mine has that repair and a new piece of wood grafted on.

(not my gun, from the above link)



Note the crown in among all the engraving:




Interestingly, it also has a hammer much more in line with what I’ve already observed on the cut-down Oberndorf muzzle loading rifle from my old thread already linked above. This makes me more secure in assuming that the hammer on my pistol is a later replacement. Additionally, the same hole that is filled with a flush, slotted screw on mine is also present on here. It's where the safety sits on the rifle I have, and where the safety goes on the m56 already discussed above. Most importantly, note the identical GEWEHRFABRIK OBERNDORF stamp as on both the pistol I'm discussing here and the rifle I've discussed elsewhere.



I believe that this is the same model as my pistol, made at about the same time. This one didn’t need the repair to the end of the pistol grip that mine did, didn’t have the hammer replaced, while mine escaped getting cut up by a mediocre engraver. Pity, as this pistol would have been in over-all nicer condition than mine before it was cut up.

That’s where I am and I’d love it if anyone with more expertise than me in this area could help fill in some blanks. Right now I’m tentatively identifying my pistol as an Oberndorf built or rebuilt Hessian m56 cavalry pistol that’s led a rough life and had some further work done on it. I don’t know if it would have been a new build as a percussion weapon at Oberndorf or an older flintlock that was reworked to percussion later on. The marking on the lockplate is basically identical to the one on the rifle I already have as well as on the mystery engraved pistol in that other forum post, so I’m pretty confident in saying this was a marking used at the Konigliche Waffenfabrik for at least a period of time – one might be an oddball or a fake, but three make a pattern. I don’t know whether the crown stamps are indicative of military acceptance (something akin to a property stamp) or if it was just an acceptance stamp they used in-house for works in process, but the fact that the same stamp is on the same place on the nose cap of three different observed guns also tells me it was a common procedure. Finally, the numbers on the grip scream unit marking to me, and I strongly suspect Hessian military based on the other pistol I linked above. No idea what the second BB24 (RB24?) mark means, but I’m not well versed in pre-unification Rhenish unit markings. For all I know it could be police or something, god only knows where a pistol like this gets handed down once it’s hopelessly obsolete.

Anyways, what are your thoughts? Please tell me we've got some Rhineland muzzleloader expert lurking in the shadows of this place who is going to tell me exactly what kind of an odd bird I've got here.

 

[Fal Grunt]

Far from an expert, which is why I collect books!!! I happen to have this one, which has a little information.

 

[Cyrano4747]

That's one of the models I considered, but it's different enough in a bunch of particulars that I discarded it. The Kongl. Waffenfabrik stamping is different than what I've got, and the specifics of the furniture, fittings, etc are different enough that I don't think it matches. Thanks for the look up, though, it's helpful.

For a time I'd considered that it might have been one of those that was converted into another model. That's still a distinct possibility in my mind, especially as the lock works don't really change much between them except for some obvious deleting of features for the frizzen etc. but that would be a major rework to the tune of discarding everything except the lock and possibly the barrel.

 

[chrisftk]

Cyrano, fwiw I think you are right on it being a Hessian cavalry pistol with some minor civilian modifications after it was surplused. I remember this particular example when it was on gun broker at an exorbitant price and did a little research at the time. The Könligliche Württemberg Arsenal at Oberndorf made some interesting weapons for some of the smaller German states, and even the Swiss cantons. I think I've posted a few of my examples from here from Swiss, Baden and Württemberg contracts.

My best stab at the unit marking would be II Reiter Abteillung, weapon 104. Take that with a grain of salt, because I am not extremely proficient in some of the conventions of smaller states with regard to unit markings. It just seems to fit. I think the canceled unit marking might possibly be something to do with artillery (B might be Batterie?) @Spartaner545 might have some thoughts too.

I'm sorry I'm not more help here, there are just very limited sources on some of the smaller states. Appreciate your thorough post and pictures though, as always. Glad you are here.

 

[biggymu]

I’m certainly no help but do appreciate the subject matter, your photos and observations. I enjoy especially the the repair of the grip. Obvious concern for a strong and lasting fix.
Definitely worth the price of admission. Thank you for posting it

 

[Spartaner545]

Cyrano, fwiw I think you are right on it being a Hessian cavalry pistol with some minor civilian modifications after it was surplused. I remember this particular example when it was on gun broker at an exorbitant price and did a little research at the time. The Könligliche Württemberg Arsenal at Oberndorf made some interesting weapons for some of the smaller German states, and even the Swiss cantons. I think I've posted a few of my examples from here from Swiss, Baden and Württemberg contracts.

My best stab at the unit marking would be II Reiter Abteillung, weapon 104. Take that with a grain of salt, because I am not extremely proficient in some of the conventions of smaller states with regard to unit markings. It just seems to fit. I think the canceled unit marking might possibly be something to do with artillery (B might be Batterie?) @Spartaner545 might have some thoughts too.

Hessia is not my field of expertise but since i was asked ill try my best.

Regarding the unit markings on this hessian M1856 Minie pistole: The older canceld marking should read as "R B 24", the newer one as "II R A 104".

"R B 24" translates to "Reiter-Regiment, B-Eskadron, Waffe Nr. 24" or in english "rider-regiment, 2nd squadron, weapon no. 24". This unit marking is from before 1860 when hessia only had one cavalry (aka rider) regiment, the Garde-Chevaulegers-Regiment. That is why there was no need for a "I" infront of the initial unit marking. In 1860 this regiment had to give away its second, fourth and fifth squadron to form a new cavalry regiment, the Leib-Chevaulegers-Regiment.

"II R A 104" translates to "II. Reiter-Regiment, A-Eskadron, Waffe Nr. 104" or in englisch "II. rider-regiment, 1st squadron, weapon no. 104."

So the pistole started its life as a weapon of the second squadron of the guard-chevauleger-regiment pre 1860 and was later used by the first squadron of the life-chevauleger-regiment after 1860. I hope this makes sense to everybody interested here.


PS: In the imperial era the two hessian cavarly regiments would be renamed into the 23rd and 24th dragoon regiments.

 

[Cyrano4747]

Awesome, thanks a lot. That is exactly the kind of information I was trying to get.

 

[Cyrano4747]

So the pistole started its life as a weapon of the second squadron of the guard-chevauleger-regiment pre 1860 and was later used by the first squadron of the life-chevauleger-regiment after 1860. I hope this makes sense to everybody interested here.

Out of curiosity, do you have any recommendations on books or other resources on the organization of post-Napoleonic, pre-Unification non-Prussian, non-Bavarian militaries? Hesse and Württemberg in particular but I'd be interested in anything if you have suggestions. German language is fine, books (even very old and out of print) books are more than fine. It's a literature I've been trying to dig into for a while.

Thanks again, that was a huge help.

 

[chrisftk]

Hessia is not my field of expertise but since i was asked ill try my best.

Thank you Vincent, I knew you wouldn't disappoint!

Ironically, I have a kar71, m89 sword and regimental Stein marked to the 23rd dragoons.

 

[Cyrano4747]

Thank you Vincent, I knew you wouldn't disappoint!

Ironically, I have a kar71, m89 sword and regimental Stein marked to the 23rd dragoons.

Lol of course you do. At this point I'm pretty sure I could pull a southwestern Imperial German regiment out of a hat and you'd have at least a gun, a blade, and a piece of cool militaria related to it.

 

[chrisftk]

Lol of course you do. At this point I'm pretty sure I could pull a southwestern Imperial German regiment out of a hat and you'd have at least a gun, a blade, and a piece of cool militaria related to it.

haha-- i don't know that I'm quite that lucky, but I do have a major soft spot for Württemberg, Hesse and Baden. IMO, the three coolest Pickelhaube wappens aside from maybe the 92nd IR.

 

[Fal Grunt]

One of my biggest problems as a researcher (because I'm a terrible one!) is that I get easily distracted and often travel down a multitude of paths that have nothing to do with what I am researching, or maybe might possibly be related, but without exploring you don't know!

That being said, I have not seen anyone post any original documentation about unit marking and was curious if people have original sources or what they would cite as their reference? I also don't know how much variance there was between the different regions for markings?

I ask because I had found a book about unit marking, from 1872. It's a publicly posted scan, so it should be free to share. Just curious if everyone has it and I was the last to find it, or if it would be interesting to post and share?