New K98B/ S28 Rifle

[Stephan98k]

Unit marking

By the Gortz and Bryans book, that unit mark designates an infantry regiment and not a Jager detachment.
The designations were modified in the Weimar era.

Bruce, I have two questions that are important.



Maybe my eyes are deceiving me, I'm not sure. The number "4" looks different. Was this number stamped at the factory or added later?



The unit should be 10th (Saxon) Infantry Regiment and the weapon number was 37. Does Gortz and Bryans's book explain why some weapon numbers have a dot stamped after the number and others don't?

 

[bruce98k]

Stephan, I believe the gun was reworked and the full SN '4' was added during the rework process.
You see this on many Kar98b reworks as well.

 

[Stephan98k]

Thank you Bruce and you are right, you can see this on many Karabiner 98b. With my question I wanted to show you something specific. These small details are important because they allow us to date or narrow something down.

The excerpt from Paul's comment is important in this context.

Late production, this is the last block, but they are known to the 4500/b block for sure, plus reported reliably to the 6000/b block.

"Schußwaffen 98 – The upper and lower rings of Schußwaffen 98 must be stamped with the weapon's complete factory number during repairs or before the autumn cleaning. On the upper rings, the missing numbers of the factory number must be stamped before the final number, and on the lower rings, above the final number. This stamping is done in the factory during new production. This is to prevent confusion between rings with identical final numbers."
Reichswehr Ministry order from January 30, 1928

The individual parts for this top secret project were produced at Berlin-Karlsruher-Industriewerke in Berlin (not B.K.I.W. Karlsruhe) and at Erma /Erfei in Erfurt. Hannemann & Co in Berlin produced the barrels.


Edit: Somebody know why some weapon numbers have a dot stamped after the number and others don't?

 

[biggymu]

Thank you Bruce and you are right, you can see this on many Karabiner 98b. With my question I wanted to show you something specific. These small details are important because they allow us to date or narrow something down.

The excerpt from Paul's comment is important in this context.



"Schußwaffen 98 – The upper and lower rings of Schußwaffen 98 must be stamped with the weapon's complete factory number during repairs or before the autumn cleaning. On the upper rings, the missing numbers of the factory number must be stamped before the final number, and on the lower rings, above the final number. This stamping is done in the factory during new production. This is to prevent confusion between rings with identical final numbers."
Reichswehr Ministry order from January 30, 1928

The individual parts for this top secret project were produced at Berlin-Karlsruher-Industriewerke in Berlin (not B.K.I.W. Karlsruhe) and at Erma /Erfei in Erfurt. Hannemann & Co in Berlin produced the barrels.


Edit: Somebody know why some weapon numbers have a dot stamped after the number and others don't?

Do you notice these dots following parts that contain only the last 2 digits of the serial and incorporate 6 and 9?
My SS/SSR has these dots, I’m guessing as a reference as to which way the number should be read.

 

[Stephan98k]

Do you notice these dots following parts that contain only the last 2 digits of the serial and incorporate 6 and 9?
My SS/SSR has these dots, I’m guessing as a reference as to which way the number should be read. View attachment 440762

Thank you for your participation and the photos!
In your case with the serial number, the dots were stamped for the reason you mentioned. For codes like bnz, which result in a different code when turned upside down, there was also a command to stamp the dot.

"Somebody know why some weapon numbers have a dot stamped after the number and others don't?"

 

[Stephan98k]

It's extremely disappointing how little interest there is, and I don't just mean this thread and the S28 enigma. I'm not asking these questions for myself, I'm doing it for the community in the forum and Bruce/Mikes books.

 

[chrisftk]

Edit: Somebody know why some weapon numbers have a dot stamped after the number and others don't?

I see the dot on a number of weapons. I've long thought it indicated a "check" that the number was correct or the part in working order on a rifle that was worked at a depot. I have numerous rifles with this feature, most appear to be early interwar reworks. I've never seen any definitive documentation to that effect though.

Maybe my eyes are deceiving me, I'm not sure. The number "4" looks different. Was this number stamped at the factory or added later?

I agree with Bruce, I have seen this on numerous reworks like 98M or 98a too..

 

[Loewe]

Stephan, I for one appreciate your contribution to this S28 variation understanding, - and I mean beyond trends (which prior to your contributions were near fact free and based upon trends work and known historical context); to be honest we still have a long way to go, but German researchers will lead the way imo, this is something trends alone will not solve - and english language historical studies on this period are next to non-existent, what does exist comes from Jon Speed and disarmament studies (there are some good works in English but rifles were not big focus... mostly they give patterns to extrapolate)

*** I will do something I rarely do, recommend further reading - numerous books by Carsten (good but tainted as so many early authors were former communists) and especially German Disarmament after World War I by Shuster, there are several others but these give a good context to the events. I am primarily a book collector by nature so I largely rely on books... leave the archival work to Speed, Stephan, Bernd and Wolfgang!

 

[chrisftk]

Here's the front band on one of my S28 (SN 589b).. clearly added the first digit later, probably when reworked.


As to the dots-- here's the front band off a Kar98a EWB marked (but still in imperial trim with white bolt and 2-digit band SNs.) Since it's EWB and still imperial style finish, leads me to believe the dots were very early, and the rifle likely stashed/hidden later. The band SN matches the receiver.

 

[Cyrano4747]

Stephan, I for one appreciate your contribution to this S28 variation understanding, - and I mean beyond trends (which prior to your contributions were near fact free and based upon trends work and known historical context); to be honest we still have a long way to go, but German researchers will lead the way imo, this is something trends alone will not solve - and english language historical studies on this period are next to non-existent, what does exist comes from Jon Speed and disarmament studies (there are some good works in English but rifles were not big focus... mostly they give patterns to extrapolate)

*** I will do something I rarely do, recommend further reading - numerous books by Carsten (good but tainted as so many early authors were former communists) and especially German Disarmament after World War I by Shuster, there are several others but these give a good context to the events. I am primarily a book collector by nature so I largely rely on books... leave the archival work to Speed, Stephan, Bernd and Wolfgang!

Francis Carsten I presume? Which of his works would you recommend? I assume The Reichswehr and Politics but are there any others you've found useful?

 

[Loewe]

Francis Carsten I presume? Which of his works would you recommend? I assume The Reichswehr and Politics but are there any others you've found useful?

Yes, that is the main book but I own several of his books and he can be quite objective considering his background, these days objectivity is a rare characteristic in a modern "historian"

 

[Honkey Tonk Devil]

Edit

 

[Stephan98k]

Here's the front band on one of my S28 (SN 589b).. clearly added the first digit later, probably when reworked.
View attachment 440856

As to the dots-- here's the front band off a Kar98a EWB marked (but still in imperial trim with white bolt and 2-digit band SNs.) Since it's EWB and still imperial style finish, leads me to believe the dots were very early, and the rifle likely stashed/hidden later. The band SN matches the receiver.
View attachment 440857

Thank you very much Chris! With your rifle in the early "b" block, we already have two late production S28s in this thread.

A new production rifle from February 1928 onwards, should get already fully stamped by the manufacturer at the factory. Rifles manufactured before this date, got the numbers added if a rework was necessary or at latest before the autumn cleaning.

All documents I have found on this subject so far indicate that there was no S28 production after the Reichswehr fiscal year 1928, the trends so far also point to this.

"Somebody know why some weapon numbers have a dot stamped after the number and others don't?"

I mean the weapon number and not the serial number. Some rifles have a dot after the weapon number. Some rifles do not have a dot after the weapon number.



Here is another example in post #6 in this thread: Unit Marking on Gew 98 1909
It's 5th Company Infantry Regiment 20 and the weapon number was "150." It seems later the weapon number "109" got stamped, that one is without a dot.

Is the reason known why sometimes the dot behind the weapon number was stamped and sometimes not? If it is not known and there is interest, then I could give the possible reason.

 

[chrisftk]

Is the reason known why sometimes the dot behind the weapon number was stamped and sometimes not? If it is not known and there is interest, then I could give the possible reason.

As far as I know, that is still a mystery.

Thank you very much Chris! With your rifle in the early "b" block, we already have two late production S28s in this thread.

A new production rifle from February 1928 onwards, should get already fully stamped by the manufacturer at the factory. Rifles manufactured before this date, got the numbers added if a rework was necessary or at latest before the autumn cleaning.

All documents I have found on this subject so far indicate that there was no S28 production after the Reichswehr fiscal year 1928, the trends so far also point to this.

Thanks Stephan, this is very helpful!

 

[biggymu]

Thank you very much Chris! With your rifle in the early "b" block, we already have two late production S28s in this thread.

A new production rifle from February 1928 onwards, should get already fully stamped by the manufacturer at the factory. Rifles manufactured before this date, got the numbers added if a rework was necessary or at latest before the autumn cleaning.

All documents I have found on this subject so far indicate that there was no S28 production after the Reichswehr fiscal year 1928, the trends so far also point to this.




I mean the weapon number and not the serial number. Some rifles have a dot after the weapon number. Some rifles do not have a dot after the weapon number.

View attachment 440976

Here is another example in post #6 in this thread: Unit Marking on Gew 98 1909
It's 5th Company Infantry Regiment 20 and the weapon number was "150." It seems later the weapon number "109" got stamped, that one is without a dot.

Is the reason known why sometimes the dot behind the weapon number was stamped and sometimes not? If it is not known and there is interest, then I could give the possible reason.

Please give us the possible reason, in your valued opinion. There is interest in identifying as many unknowns as possible here on this forum.
I myself have a small collection, and I am not a researcher. In this group I have learned the most.
Your posts are always informative. Thank you.

 

[Stephan98k]

Please give us the possible reason, in your valued opinion. There is interest in identifying as many unknowns as possible here on this forum.
I myself have a small collection, and I am not a researcher. In this group I have learned the most.
Your posts are always informative. Thank you.

Thank you and you are very welcome.

The stamping with the "dots" was a trick to mark and conceal the illegal weapons.

A Volume I page with some examples: MY 1933 railway banner

Another example: 1934 Deutsche Reichsbann butt plate markings

The rifle in the second example belonged to the Deutsche Reichsbahn Bezirk (District) 13 and had the weapon number "330." This rifle was illegal and there was a second, legally owned rifle in the district, which had the weapon number "330". Upon request an involved employee removed this rifle from the special inventory book (a separate inventory book with secret stocks), transferred this rifle to Bezirk 15, and there it was added to the permitted regular stocks with the weapon number "290".

This is a very complex topic with many documents and important data. You could write a whole book about it.