Simson Suhl Research Study
- Thread starter Loewe
- Start date
Here you can see the difference in bluing colour with the receiver compared to the barrel. This is also evident on the safety for the bolt which bluing matches the floor plate, follower, and receiver. Again, notice the font difference in the serial number as stamped on the bolt handle (pay particular attention to the number 3 and 4). The crudely stamped Third Reich Eagle as well. Could this be a Weimar era turned down bolt drop in instead of the previously noted Third Reich late war bolt ? The bolt stop also appears to have had the original serial number stamped over with another one. A possible Imperial force match to another rifle that was put on this one ?
Here is the rear sight, along with an interesting image showcasing my 98m with a S. 84/98 III bayonet. A nice match up too as the bayonet is dated 1938 and the frog and scabbard 1940.
Bluing on the rear sight leaf closely matches the receiver, follower, and floor plate. Notice the same number 3 and 4 font used on the rear sight ?
If you would like a picture of any part of the rifle, let me know and I will provide.
Bluing on the rear sight leaf closely matches the receiver, follower, and floor plate. Notice the same number 3 and 4 font used on the rear sight ?
If you would like a picture of any part of the rifle, let me know and I will provide.
Yes, I think the rifle went through 2 or more reworks/repairs/upgrade.
Not sure the meaning of the bolt comments? It is mismatched to the rifle? It looks like a bolt out of a bcd, by its serialing style and way the parts are marked (several have SG codes on them..)
The stock is interesting in that it is in the Gew.98 configuration but has a cutout for a bent bolt, - I went back and see that it matches the rifle so its original to the rifle. This is the way Gew.98 sniper rifle stocks are arranged, - the bottom sling arrangement with bolt cutouts- but also some Kar98b have this set up too for some reason (normally the Kar98b has a side sling arrangement and bolt cutout- basically a long Kar98k).
In a very narrow range within Kar98b production these show up, ScottB has one or two of them, and I have seen a couple others.
Not sure if the stock is an old Imperial sniper rifle stock or an interwar oddball like is sometimes seen on the Kar98b? I see no Imperial cypher, or Imperial acceptance (hard to read the wrist marking? Looks like it might be an Imperial acceptance but could be most anything).
Anyway, looks like a typical Gew.98M (with an interesting stock) that went through a later nazi era rework, but your bolt would not have originally been in this rifle.
The rear sight is much earlier than the barrel and as they both match its obvious that the rifle went through two reworks or upgrades. Probably the second only replacing the barrel.
Not sure the meaning of the bolt comments? It is mismatched to the rifle? It looks like a bolt out of a bcd, by its serialing style and way the parts are marked (several have SG codes on them..)
The stock is interesting in that it is in the Gew.98 configuration but has a cutout for a bent bolt, - I went back and see that it matches the rifle so its original to the rifle. This is the way Gew.98 sniper rifle stocks are arranged, - the bottom sling arrangement with bolt cutouts- but also some Kar98b have this set up too for some reason (normally the Kar98b has a side sling arrangement and bolt cutout- basically a long Kar98k).
In a very narrow range within Kar98b production these show up, ScottB has one or two of them, and I have seen a couple others.
Not sure if the stock is an old Imperial sniper rifle stock or an interwar oddball like is sometimes seen on the Kar98b? I see no Imperial cypher, or Imperial acceptance (hard to read the wrist marking? Looks like it might be an Imperial acceptance but could be most anything).
Anyway, looks like a typical Gew.98M (with an interesting stock) that went through a later nazi era rework, but your bolt would not have originally been in this rifle.
The rear sight is much earlier than the barrel and as they both match its obvious that the rifle went through two reworks or upgrades. Probably the second only replacing the barrel.
I concur about the possibility of two or more re-works. The rear sight certainly looks Weimar era than Third Reich.
As for the stock, it has confused me as well as the only real difference between a Kar98b and this Gewehr 98m is simply the sling arrangement. On the butt stock, right side, is the faded Imperial acceptance marks as shown in the provided picture. Compared to my Kar98a, there appears to be no Weimar eagle stamped in the stock. The stock also has the matching serial number stamped on the barrel channel and on the exterior on the bottom of the butt stock but this area is difficult to photograph as it is faded from being sanded. The markings on the wrist appear to be an c/W followed by an e/SU 19 or 10.
I have also provided an image of the recess in the stock and modification to accommodate the turned down bolt handle. It looks professionally done and not like process that was run through quite quickly. Since I do not own a Kar98b, does this modification look similar to that area of the stock found on a Kar98b ?
As for the bolt, I'm not quite sure exactly what time it came in. It is possible the rifle had been modified in the pre-war years (as evidenced by the level of workmanship in the modification to the stock). It is possible she had a Weimar era bolt that was simply swapped out at one point for this bolt. It is also possible this bolt is a post war mis-match by either foreign service or by a collector. We may never know for certain though. What is interesting, is the firing pin is Imperial proofed and marked so either it is a lucky coincidence or the previous bolt was swapped out for parts and replaced with this one. The recess cut into the stock could even be a post war modification by a collector. Again, we may never know for certain but I would be interested in your thoughts as all my leads on the Gewehr 98m and Kar98b have turned up nothing useful in explaining this.
As for the stock, it has confused me as well as the only real difference between a Kar98b and this Gewehr 98m is simply the sling arrangement. On the butt stock, right side, is the faded Imperial acceptance marks as shown in the provided picture. Compared to my Kar98a, there appears to be no Weimar eagle stamped in the stock. The stock also has the matching serial number stamped on the barrel channel and on the exterior on the bottom of the butt stock but this area is difficult to photograph as it is faded from being sanded. The markings on the wrist appear to be an c/W followed by an e/SU 19 or 10.
I have also provided an image of the recess in the stock and modification to accommodate the turned down bolt handle. It looks professionally done and not like process that was run through quite quickly. Since I do not own a Kar98b, does this modification look similar to that area of the stock found on a Kar98b ?
As for the bolt, I'm not quite sure exactly what time it came in. It is possible the rifle had been modified in the pre-war years (as evidenced by the level of workmanship in the modification to the stock). It is possible she had a Weimar era bolt that was simply swapped out at one point for this bolt. It is also possible this bolt is a post war mis-match by either foreign service or by a collector. We may never know for certain though. What is interesting, is the firing pin is Imperial proofed and marked so either it is a lucky coincidence or the previous bolt was swapped out for parts and replaced with this one. The recess cut into the stock could even be a post war modification by a collector. Again, we may never know for certain but I would be interested in your thoughts as all my leads on the Gewehr 98m and Kar98b have turned up nothing useful in explaining this.
The r/s is pre-1929 imo, the barrel 1939 or later work.
Attached is a cutout from a Kar98b stock i own, - yours is probably an Imperial sniper rifle stock or an interwar alteration. I doubt the typical humper nincompoop could replicate the cutout. The Su/19 (probably as its commonly encountered) is the one who worked the rifle. There are a dozen+ of Su/xx known, but some are far more common than others.
Imo the rifle would "probably" had a bent bolt in it, but not necessarily. ScottB rifle has the cutout and straight handles as i recall. Further they did make Gew.98 type bolts in the interwar period.
Anyway, I do not think your bolt is original to the rifle at all, though it could have been placed in it when or near the time it came back. The bolt is probably out of a 1943-44 bcd imo. Certainly nothing wrong with using it as it works just as well as any Gew.98/98a/98b bolt would. They are completely interchangeable.
Anyway, just my opinion on the rifle, others might differ.
Attached is a cutout from a Kar98b stock i own, - yours is probably an Imperial sniper rifle stock or an interwar alteration. I doubt the typical humper nincompoop could replicate the cutout. The Su/19 (probably as its commonly encountered) is the one who worked the rifle. There are a dozen+ of Su/xx known, but some are far more common than others.
Imo the rifle would "probably" had a bent bolt in it, but not necessarily. ScottB rifle has the cutout and straight handles as i recall. Further they did make Gew.98 type bolts in the interwar period.
Anyway, I do not think your bolt is original to the rifle at all, though it could have been placed in it when or near the time it came back. The bolt is probably out of a 1943-44 bcd imo. Certainly nothing wrong with using it as it works just as well as any Gew.98/98a/98b bolt would. They are completely interchangeable.
Anyway, just my opinion on the rifle, others might differ.
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Thank you for the Kar98b recess picture, it looks just like my Kar98k. Assuming this stock may be off a sniper, why is it stamped to match ? I did not notice any sanding or any other serial number in the barrel channel but I will certainly field strip her and check again. Do you have any pictures of a Gewehr 98 sniper stock that shows the recess area of the stock ?
You mentioned the bolt may be off a bcd, without straying too far off topic, is this a manufacture for the Kar98k during WW2 ? I don't recognise the code from the ones I am familiar with.
Thanks for the help, Simson!
You mentioned the bolt may be off a bcd, without straying too far off topic, is this a manufacture for the Kar98k during WW2 ? I don't recognise the code from the ones I am familiar with.
Thanks for the help, Simson!
Hard to say, - just stating the fact that the only Gew.98 length stocks with bottom sling arrangement AND bolt cutouts are sniper rifle stocks and on a VERY narrow range of Kar98b production (offhand i think it was within the "e" blocks, which is near the end)
Could be most anything, including some period armorer adding the cutout. The RM seem to have had their own way of doing things, lots of short cuts and doing as they pleased. You see weird stuff Imperial through nazi era with the navy doing just about whatever they pleased with rifles.
I do not own a sniper rifle, and not sure how others would feel about me popping their pics up as these rifles are pretty desirable. Looks much like the 98b cutout though?
Yes, a Kar98k maker, bcd is BSW Weimar, later changes name to Gustloff Werke Weimar, and they were more an assembler than a rifle maker. They assembled other companies small parts into rifles. (a practice common enough in Imperial times- using other mfg parts- but by WWII it was the normal standard, and actual rifle making completely in house nearly eliminated. Mauser and dot/Brunn being the closest "real" makers)
Could be most anything, including some period armorer adding the cutout. The RM seem to have had their own way of doing things, lots of short cuts and doing as they pleased. You see weird stuff Imperial through nazi era with the navy doing just about whatever they pleased with rifles.
I do not own a sniper rifle, and not sure how others would feel about me popping their pics up as these rifles are pretty desirable. Looks much like the 98b cutout though?
Yes, a Kar98k maker, bcd is BSW Weimar, later changes name to Gustloff Werke Weimar, and they were more an assembler than a rifle maker. They assembled other companies small parts into rifles. (a practice common enough in Imperial times- using other mfg parts- but by WWII it was the normal standard, and actual rifle making completely in house nearly eliminated. Mauser and dot/Brunn being the closest "real" makers)
I understand about the pictures, Simson, I think we can safely say the stock recess is a Weimar period modification.
As for BSW Weimar, their practice of assembling pieces from parts made by other firms certainly explains the bolt as many parts have subcontractor marks on them and no WaAs. Any other details you can provide on them ?
As for BSW Weimar, their practice of assembling pieces from parts made by other firms certainly explains the bolt as many parts have subcontractor marks on them and no WaAs. Any other details you can provide on them ?
Here is a period picture of a sniper rifle.
As for bcd, they were a company created from the ashes of Simson Suhl, in 1935 they were nationalized and the nazi government dumped massive amounts of money expanding the firm, creating a large holding company that controlled many formerly Jewish owned firms.
In Weimar they set up a company that was designed from the beginning as a firm to assemble other companies parts. This was in 1938, and the idea was utilize the nearby concentration camps labor (Buchenwald), most of the firms chosen to supply parts were commercial firms from nearby, - many from Saxony (hence the Saxony Group as they better known) and others from Thüringen.
This was carried out through the entire war, - Gustloff Werke Weimar was far more than a rifle maker/assembler, they were involved in many things and were a rather wicked company with a very ugly past. More than most companies they represent nazi Germany- new, radical, ruthless, despicable and rather inefficient.
The only "people" more inefficient than nazis are communists. Kind of odd how the nazis ever came to power in such an organized, well-mannered society as Germany.
As for bcd, they were a company created from the ashes of Simson Suhl, in 1935 they were nationalized and the nazi government dumped massive amounts of money expanding the firm, creating a large holding company that controlled many formerly Jewish owned firms.
In Weimar they set up a company that was designed from the beginning as a firm to assemble other companies parts. This was in 1938, and the idea was utilize the nearby concentration camps labor (Buchenwald), most of the firms chosen to supply parts were commercial firms from nearby, - many from Saxony (hence the Saxony Group as they better known) and others from Thüringen.
This was carried out through the entire war, - Gustloff Werke Weimar was far more than a rifle maker/assembler, they were involved in many things and were a rather wicked company with a very ugly past. More than most companies they represent nazi Germany- new, radical, ruthless, despicable and rather inefficient.
The only "people" more inefficient than nazis are communists. Kind of odd how the nazis ever came to power in such an organized, well-mannered society as Germany.
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That image is perfect, Simson! You can clearly see the same resemblance with your Kar98b photo. This photo will also assist me in creating a Gewehr 98 sniper clone from a beat up Gewehr 98 sporter I acquired a year ago. If you have any more close up photos like that, I would greatly appreciate seeing them.
As for BSW, it is eerie to think my bolt was assembled by a concentration camp worker while under SS guard and possibly dropped into my rifle during WW2 or perhaps finding its way to being swapped post war. Where was this firm located ? Did they relocate the concentration camp workers to a work camp on site or was the assembly plant relatively close by to the main concentration camp ?
As for BSW, it is eerie to think my bolt was assembled by a concentration camp worker while under SS guard and possibly dropped into my rifle during WW2 or perhaps finding its way to being swapped post war. Where was this firm located ? Did they relocate the concentration camp workers to a work camp on site or was the assembly plant relatively close by to the main concentration camp ?
Another question, did BSW Weimar/ Gustloff-Werke Weimar stamp their code onto their bolts ? I have looked and can only find the serial number "310 m (looks like an n but there appears to be an extra arch beside the n). The extractor is stamped 10, the bolt sleeve is stamped 310, and the safety is stamped 310. The cocking piece is stamped 80 and appears to have an Imperial style acceptance mark on it.
Sometimes you see the e/749 which is their waffenamt used. Most commonly you see the "l" or "L" and or e/1 waffenamt which is the waffenamt for Chemnitz, Saxony where Astrawerke is located.
Astrawerke provided parts and bolts to other firms but were originally set up for Gustloff Weimar specifically. Dr. Todt originally set up a frame work for what became the "rings", "rationalization" and subcontractor system so familiar to Kar98k collectors (Speer got the credit for it, unjustifiably so, but his relationship with Hitler made it the success it was.. Todt a firm hardcore nazi was also unusual for a nazi dirtbag... he was honest and he tended to tell everyone the truth as he saw it- including Hitler.)
Anyway, the manner in which it is serialed is typical for bcd/Gustloff Weimar and I have zero doubts it came out of a 1943-44 bcd Kar98k "originally".
Astrawerke provided parts and bolts to other firms but were originally set up for Gustloff Weimar specifically. Dr. Todt originally set up a frame work for what became the "rings", "rationalization" and subcontractor system so familiar to Kar98k collectors (Speer got the credit for it, unjustifiably so, but his relationship with Hitler made it the success it was.. Todt a firm hardcore nazi was also unusual for a nazi dirtbag... he was honest and he tended to tell everyone the truth as he saw it- including Hitler.)
Anyway, the manner in which it is serialed is typical for bcd/Gustloff Weimar and I have zero doubts it came out of a 1943-44 bcd Kar98k "originally".
Original "sniper" pictures are scarce, and very expensive, believe it or not they can cost hundreds of dollars just for a single picture. Some might not like their picture posted about but if you have a specific area I might be able to help as I have hundreds of pictures on file, none of which I own.
I generally do not post pictures that do not belong to me because I wouldn't like my pics heisted and posted. I have spent hundreds on period pics for my writings and website, so you can imagine the reluctance to post pics that do not belong to me. (However I will help if you need a angle or two for your project)
As for Gustloff, there are many accounts of the brutality of the place, (even though it wasn't a death camp), one story in particular I remember reading of an engineer from Chemnitz (Jew of course) who during a machinery sale (he was there to explain and demo the machines) he met an old acquaintance, - Fritz Walther- and Fritz snuck him a pack of cigarettes.
Even a hard core dirtnag nazi like Walther, could have sympathy I guess.
Both Gustloff Weimar and Buchanwald was located in Weimar Germany. Not far from Suhl, and Erfurt.
Not sure the actual disposition of the facility, I know parts were located within the concentration camp and that was the plan but as Gustloff Weimar was a nazi owned facility (held publicly by high ranking nazis in the nazi form of "capitalism" where the state or key nazis held 50% or more controlling stock and the rest was sold stock to the public to give a semblance of private ownership.. this was done by the soviets after 1945 too- good system to keep the US/Brits thinking the eastern Europeans countries were still independent. Of course by 1948 most pretense was not necessary.) they probably received labor directly on occasion, as that was the pattern. Firms with ties to the ss or nazis could get labor directly, within rules and guidelines (security)
I generally do not post pictures that do not belong to me because I wouldn't like my pics heisted and posted. I have spent hundreds on period pics for my writings and website, so you can imagine the reluctance to post pics that do not belong to me. (However I will help if you need a angle or two for your project)
As for Gustloff, there are many accounts of the brutality of the place, (even though it wasn't a death camp), one story in particular I remember reading of an engineer from Chemnitz (Jew of course) who during a machinery sale (he was there to explain and demo the machines) he met an old acquaintance, - Fritz Walther- and Fritz snuck him a pack of cigarettes.
Even a hard core dirtnag nazi like Walther, could have sympathy I guess.
Both Gustloff Weimar and Buchanwald was located in Weimar Germany. Not far from Suhl, and Erfurt.
Not sure the actual disposition of the facility, I know parts were located within the concentration camp and that was the plan but as Gustloff Weimar was a nazi owned facility (held publicly by high ranking nazis in the nazi form of "capitalism" where the state or key nazis held 50% or more controlling stock and the rest was sold stock to the public to give a semblance of private ownership.. this was done by the soviets after 1945 too- good system to keep the US/Brits thinking the eastern Europeans countries were still independent. Of course by 1948 most pretense was not necessary.) they probably received labor directly on occasion, as that was the pattern. Firms with ties to the ss or nazis could get labor directly, within rules and guidelines (security)
I understand, that explains my difficulty in locating decent reference images. The first one you posted is a huge help in itself.
The specific areas I am looking for are close ups of the mounts and how they are mated to the receiver and the action area (specifically the bolt recess and anything that differs from a regular Gewehr 98). Would you happen to know what type of sight picture there is on the scopes that were used ? Would it be similar to the WW2 style scopes used on the Kar98k ?
The specific areas I am looking for are close ups of the mounts and how they are mated to the receiver and the action area (specifically the bolt recess and anything that differs from a regular Gewehr 98). Would you happen to know what type of sight picture there is on the scopes that were used ? Would it be similar to the WW2 style scopes used on the Kar98k ?
Peter Senich's book is pretty good on such details, and the book can be had reasonable- $50 or so, perhaps less.
I have owned scopes before but do not recall what was typical. Most period pictures you will find do not show the rifle in high detail, they naturally focus on the soldiers as they were sent home to loved ones. Not usually very helpful on details of mounts and such.
I have owned scopes before but do not recall what was typical. Most period pictures you will find do not show the rifle in high detail, they naturally focus on the soldiers as they were sent home to loved ones. Not usually very helpful on details of mounts and such.
I'll definitely get some more pictures. No marking on the stock as it is an older Richard's microfit stock.
