Textbook Erfurt 1918/1920 Kar98a 9707f

[OnlyMil]

Hello everybody. I don't accumulate a lot of new stuff for the forum very often, but I was fortunate enough to pick this Weimar Kar98a rifle up about 6 months ago. It was a part of Sam Levy's collection and he picked it up in the 1970s at a swap meet on Long Island. Happy to have in my collection now! It is a pretty textbook example of a interwar carbine designated for whatever the intertwined "BS" is. As far as I am aware the jury is still out on what this marking means. Possibly "Bahnschutz" (railway police) but I believe this is just conjecture. What we do know is that this rifle was retained by the German government post WW1 and has the 1920 property mark on both the receiver and the stock. This is a typical rework with blued bolt, and force-matched components. One interesting thing about this rifle is that the matching follower is NOT modified to hold open on empty as was commonly done. Very pretty bluing and a very nice condition type 3 stock in walnut which is NOT duffle-cut. All outward serial numbers are matching or force-matched to the receiver. Many of the internal serial numbers are also matching, with the exception of the stacking hook nut, stock, and handguard. The stacking hook nut and stock are from the same donor rifle, as you might expect. I can't tell about the buttplate, since the rework team did a great job obliterating it lol. What is neat is that they took the time to either replace or force match the bayonet lug.

There appears to be several added interwar markings if I'm not mistaken. Information on these is close to zero. Notably a "D in K" on the left side of the receiver, a "S" on the underside of the bolt, the intertwined "BS" and the "Br." markings on the stock. Not sure how uniform these Weimar updates were, or where they took place, and by whom.

Here's the data sheet:
Receiver 9707f
Barrel 9707f (original barrel)
Front Sight 07
Rear Sight Spring 07
Rear Sight Leaf 07 (force matched)
Sight Slider 07
Ejector Box 07
Trigger Sear 07
Front Barrel Band 9707 (force matched, note - full S/N)
Front barrel Band Hinge 07
Stacking Hook 07
Stacking Hook Nut M/M
Rear Barrel Band 9707 (force matched, note - Full S/N)
Trigger Guard 9707 (force matched)
Trigger Guard Screws 07 (rear), 07 (forward)
Floor Plate 07 (force matched)
Follower 07 (bolt does NOT hold open on empty)
Stock 9707 (inside M/M, outside force matched)
Buttplate 9707 (force matched)
Bayonet Lug 07
Handguard M/M (expected)
Bolt body 9707f (possibly force matched)
Safety 07
Cocking Piece 07
Shroud 07
Firing Pin 07
Extractor 07

If I'm missing anything, please let me know. I tried to photograph everything.

 

[OnlyMil]

 

[OnlyMil]

 

[chrisftk]

Looks good Alex! I remember when Sam was selling this one. It's a nice interwar rework. The "x'ed" out buttplate numbers vindicate another rifle of mine.

 

[Jdt]

Gorgeous rifle man! Excellent work on the cleaning to BS marked rifles and pistols are super interesting. Hopefully some documents will surface and pin down what BS stands for.

 

[joryfreeburg]

Nice rifle Alex…. I would let it in my safe

 

[AN-94]

Sweet rifle! Really appreciate you posting it here since I don't see a lot of Weimar era reworks.

 

[skearns]

I love the figure in the wood. Beautiful

 

[OnlyMil]

Looks good Alex! I remember when Sam was selling this one. It's a nice interwar rework. The "x'ed" out buttplate numbers vindicate another rifle of mine.

Thanks Chris, been honing my photography skills

Would be very cool if we could figure out the added markings, or where these reworks were done and on what scale... Alas probably lost to the ages.

Nice rifle Alex…. I would let it in my safe

Thanks Jory, words of high praise in my book!! lol

Gorgeous rifle man! Excellent work on the cleaning to BS marked rifles and pistols are super interesting. Hopefully some documents will surface and pin down what BS stands for.

I'll only take some credit, Sam was religious about his rifles. I don't think he ever shot them. He had a lot of amazing things in factory new condition. Still convinced he is a time traveler...

Sweet rifle! Really appreciate you posting it here since I don't see a lot of Weimar era reworks.

Thanks! It's pretty textbook, but I think the condition really makes this rifle pop. I love a no-nonsense gun. Only thing out of the usual is that the follow isn't modified to hold open on empty, however it is matching, and blued (would have been in the white during Imperial service). So it was deliberately not done. This has popped up on other examples here too. It could have been timing, or perhaps a lack of uniformity in how these reworks were done. We'll never really know.

I love the figure in the wood. Beautiful

Thanks, yes when they worked this one over they must've found some very nice walnut and tossed the beech. A little less common to see a type 3 stock in walnut. Most type 3s I think were beech. You can almost see some tiger-striping on the stock too as an added bonus.

 

[cj556]

Alex, nice 98A. FWIW West Point museum has an intertwined "BS" MP18. The marking is on the mag well. I purchased an all matching 1918 Danzig 98a (Marked with same "BS" on right side of receiver) earlier this year but no "BS" on the stock (Stock is 1920 marked & matching with X'd out buttplate). That one too lacks the follower hold-open modification like yours.

 

[Honkey Tonk Devil]

Really nice piece complimented by great photos.

 

[Peter S]

The stock on yours is very nice! On mine (1916 Erfurt BS/KS Kar98a) the follower also lacks the hold open modification.

 

[nirvana]

Nice rifle. Worthy of the picture thread sticky.

 

[skearns]

You can almost see some tiger-striping on the stock too as an added bonus.

Almost? Sir, to me, it’s loud and proud. Love it.

 

[Loewe]

For 20 years collectors have argued the meaning or purpose of the intertwined BS (even the "block" B.S. is not the mystery intertwined are, it is fairly clear the block B.S. is an ordnance depot marking); some of the speculation is borderline absurd especially the suggestion it is related to the Spartacus league... the property mark eliminates that absurdity... (in 2006 this theory among P08 collectors, usually quite ingenious, discredited their usual superiority in regards for research)

The typical addition of the property mark (1920) means the central government was in possession (with a few exceptions) and eliminates the Spartacus terrorists as a possibility imo. In my opinion the most plausible answer is the railroad scenarios, the AEF mention of Rhine pirates (the AEF asked help from the belgians because of this activity) and the creation of the multitude of police formations (and rail was the biggie) and the relative "commonality" of the theme (the creations of specialized policing formations) the intertwined BS is police related.

 

[OnlyMil]

For 20 years collectors have argued the meaning or purpose of the intertwined BS (even the "block" B.S. is not the mystery intertwined are, it is fairly clear the block B.S. is an ordnance depot marking); some of the speculation is borderline absurd especially the suggestion it is related to the Spartacus league... the property mark eliminates that absurdity... (in 2006 this theory among P08 collectors, usually quite ingenious, discredited their usual superiority in regards for research)

The typical addition of the property mark (1920) means the central government was in possession (with a few exceptions) and eliminates the Spartacus terrorists as a possibility imo. In my opinion the most plausible answer is the railroad scenarios, the AEF mention of Rhine pirates (the AEF asked help from the belgians because of this activity) and the creation of the multitude of police formations (and rail was the biggie) and the relative "commonality" of the theme (the creations of specialized policing formations) the intertwined BS is police related.

Thanks Paul, I appreciate your 'Occum's Razor' approach to the marking: there were a lot of police after WWI, and the railway police were the biggest, so it would make sense they got the most arms, and hence have the most common marking. It's kind of nuts the number of police organizations in Germany after the war. I'm sure this had a dual purpose of distributing as much as possible wartime small arms since Germany was limited by Versailles, and the widespread civil unrest in Germany needed to be quelled...

Almost? Sir, to me, it’s loud and proud. Love it.

Haha thanks, I appreciate it! Sorry, I guess I'm being too modest

Alex, nice 98A. FWIW West Point museum has an intertwined "BS" MP18. The marking is on the mag well. I purchased an all matching 1918 Danzig 98a (Marked with same "BS" on right side of receiver) earlier this year but no "BS" on the stock (Stock is 1920 marked & matching with X'd out buttplate). That one too lacks the follower hold-open modification like yours.

Thanks Marc! Chris has a "BS" G98M too. Seems they had a multitude of arms given the MP18 you mention. Definitely a larger police organization like Paul suggests. I'm guessing that the Kar98a was the most commonly carried outside the P08, given it is a little shorter and handier than the G98M and the need for a machine gun in everyday police use is a little overkill lol. Another 98a without a hold open is also neat, and good to know.

The stock on yours is very nice! On mine (1916 Erfurt BS/KS Kar98a) the follower also lacks the hold open modification.

Thanks Peter! Seems like the lack of hold open is more common than I thought.

 

[Loewe]

Accountability demands regarding hidden reserves (especially suspicion of police formations used as a military reserve) from the IAMCC in regards to the multitude police formations was a common dispute; probably the most pressing and perplexing (due to obvious struggles to maintain peace and order) among many others (most were dealing with artillery, forts, the Reichsheer, RM, heavy industry etc... were easier to quantify)

French and Belgium were the main drivers behind accountability (vengeance and retribution, the former as guilty as the Germans for the war the latter one of the few real victims..) Naturally the English and Americans were easier to satisfy (manipulate as England was eager to reestablish trade and the US wanted out, back then the GOP was less than enthusiastic for a lingering presence in Europe and would win back power with promises of "normalcy" - ultimately leading to the last great and honest US President - Calvin Coolidge, its been down hill ever since)

 

[OnlyMil]

Thanks Paul, appreciate your context as well!!

 

[chrisftk]

Thanks Marc! Chris has a "BS" G98M too. Seems they had a multitude of arms given the MP18 you mention. Definitely a larger police organization like Paul suggests. I'm guessing that the Kar98a was the most commonly carried outside the P08, given it is a little shorter and handier than the G98M and the need for a machine gun in everyday police use is a little overkill lol. Another 98a without a hold open is also neat, and good to know.

I've also seen a few early 1920s production Ortgies pistols with the same intertwined BS marking--

 

[Cyrano4747]

I've also seen a few early 1920s production Ortgies pistols with the same intertwined BS marking--

I believe it's a different marking. I've never gotten a solid answer on what it is, but I think it might be a highly stylized D (as in "Deutsche Werk" which you often find prominently stamped on their guns).

Here's an example from a really crappy interwar .22LR Ortgies rifle I have kicking around at the back of my safe somewhere. Old photo, but I have it on hand and it illustrates the issue: