Third Party Press

Xmas ornaments from Hilter's tree

Warrior1354

ax - hole
Well when over 99% of these ornaments have been proven as fake over the years, and thousands have poured in here from Eastern Europe. I would not be spending $1000 for an Nazi SS Christmas tree 7 piece set. Me and Mike Stevens watched at the SOS show Old Walter K. selling boatloads of this crap to the masses. I personally loved hearing about the Nazi toilet paper story, found in that old barn in Bavarian. From the man himself. People seem to forget Fake SA daggers were coming out of Spain in 1946.
 

Peter U

Moderator
Staff member
Sorry, I don't have the law text at hand but I know for a fact that the NSDAP made it illegal to use Hitler images, Swastika's and other Nazi symbols on kitch items, toys,...etc.
A kind of copyright law, which was strictly enforced, if you wanted to produce something with a NSDAP symbol on it, you had to get your design approved by the NSDAP.
If they were produced in the Nazi period, the maker would have been prosecuted, because they certainly don't meet the quality standards they used.
Also if they were made during the Nazi era there has to be documented evidence, a picture, advertizing material, a sales catalogue, an invoice,...etc, nothing of this kind has been shown to the public, only some BS vet stories or I found a stock of these in a barn in Eastern Europe.
 

M45

Well-known member
While I agree the video above is a bit scant on detail, the main point is that there is no credible period evidence that Nazi Christmas ornaments were ever really a thing. Sure, there probably were some true believing maidens of the Third Reich who made some tacky folk art swastika ornaments, but no one has ever been able to locate any evidence that these were ‘manufactured’ in any meaningful sense of the word.

Meanwhile we know that fraudsters have been slapping swastikas on anything and selling them off pretty well since the end of the war. Just seems much more likely these are all fantasy items than the real deal.
I would strongly caution against using a single Google search as the basis for determining what "never existed" during the TR period. Try Googling 'German M36 para helmet' and see how many fakes pop up. Will all of the fakes presented, someone could (wrongly) conclude that originals were never produced. But of course we know they were produced and a few even exist in collections today.

Remember that the 'does not exist' slogan was the mantra of the WAF forum to refer to anything they or their friends had never seen before. Collectors have come to expect such arrogant behavior there (from WAF) but in the same vein, collectors expect much better (more mature) behavior here.

Maybe a definition of terms is in order: (mine)
replica - a reproduction of an original item (being sold as a reproduction)
Fake - a reproduction of an original item (being sold as an original)
Fantasy item - a modern creation that has no basis of existence during the period (originals never existed)

So there is evidence after all that such things were manufactured (Show me).
The two examples I posted are clearly nazi xmas ornaments that were manufactured (not home made).
Also the Wikipedia blurb talking about nazi symbolism used on xmas trees during the period tells us that such things did in fact exist.

So here lies the conundrum (re: my nazi xmas ornaments) -

Either I'm lying, or the old man was lying 45 years ago about where/how he acquired the ornaments. (BTW, the old man had brought with him to sell at the swap meet an original SA dagger)

If all you want to satisfy your questions is a period photo showing nazi symbolism on a xmas tree, we may be able to find one. But to say such things never existed is going far beyond the call of duty IMO and even ventures into the realm of the WAFtarded.

EDIT: The bit about the fake not-zee shite paper is really a poor example. Micro Joe compared the original TR era toilet paper to the fake. So the original does exist.
 

M45

Well-known member

Foto, Inf.Rgt.432/Inf.Rgt.489, Weihnachtsfeier im Krieg 1939/40 (1), VL(80094)​

Label associated with the photo.

TR period photos showing how Xmas was nazified. Hitler bust, nazi flags.
 

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Warrior1354

ax - hole
I would not going by wikipedia for conclusive evidence on something 100%. Any article on there can be edited. Once again no evidence ever has been present on these ever being manufactured during the Third Reich period. Just a few stories of these being found in the 70s, or brought home by a Vet from Europe. You do realize somebody could have had some of these made in Germany as a trinket item to bring home. The payment cost were a few chocolate bars, cigarettes, food, etc. Done by a few locals? Not worth investing, or researching in when 99% are fake.
 

Warrior1354

ax - hole

Foto, Inf.Rgt.432/Inf.Rgt.489, Weihnachtsfeier im Krieg 1939/40 (1), VL(80094)​

Label associated with the photo.

A TR period photo show how Xmas was nazified. Hitler bust, nazi flag.
Ok Christmas tinsel on tree what does that prove?
 

M45

Well-known member
I would not going by wikipedia for conclusive evidence on something 100%. Any article on there can be edited. Once again no evidence ever has been present on these ever being manufactured during the Third Reich period. Just a few stories of these being found in the 70s, or brought home by a Vet from Europe. You do realize somebody could have had some of these made in Germany as a trinket item to bring home. The payment cost were a few chocolate bars, cigarettes, food, etc. Done by a few locals? Not worth investing, or researching in when 99% are fake.
First of all, the swastika was banned in Germany after the war. For a company to actually start producing items from scratch with a swaz at that time seems unlikely.
Second, these are very delicate, fragile, breakable items and would not be a very good choice for allied troops to be carrying home in their duffel bags.
 

Guillaume d'Orange

Senior Member
I bought this one from the grandson of a WW2 private. He told me his grandfather had found it after the war, hidden behind machinery at the Mauser factory. It feels a little bit sticky, I hope it's just old cutting oil...
wehrmacht_sign.jpg
Panzerknacker 😂
 

hale1940

Senior Member
So there is evidence after all that such things were manufactured (Show me).
Also the Wikipedia blurb talking about nazi symbolism used on xmas trees during the period tells us that such things did in fact exist.
...Where? What evidence?
...A Wikipedia article about how the NSDAP ideologues tried to Nazify Christmas is not equivalent to an authentication of your Nazi Christmas ornaments.
...to say such things never existed is going far beyond the call of duty IMO and even ventures into the realm of the WAFtarded.
I would caution you on insinuating the we are being 'WAFtarded' when your proof is little more than a personal anecdote. We are being skeptical, which is the appropriate response to an item that is known to be 99% fake...if not more so.

At the end of the day yours might be real, who knows. But you've provided little to no rational evidence to convince us of such.

First of all, the swastika was banned in Germany after the war. For a company to actually start producing items from scratch with a swaz at that time seems unlikely.
Also, if I am being frank, I believe you are making this point in bad faith. Sure, the swastika was banned from Germany post-war, but you probably know as well as anyone else that there was pretty much a cottage industry of Nazi trinkets in post-War Europe...marketed at NATO troops and tourists.
 
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Peter U

Moderator
Staff member

The law that made the production of these illegal.
So if you have an original, it should be one of the few that were produced prior to May 1933, basically for the Christmas tree of 1932, or you have one made for the post war tourist souvenir market, the choice is yours.
 

M45

Well-known member

The law that made the production of these illegal.
So if you have an original, it should be one of the few that were produced prior to May 1933, basically for the Christmas tree of 1932, or you have one made for the post war tourist souvenir market, the choice is yours.
Section 1 of the law regulated: "It is forbidden to use the symbols of German history, the German state and the national uprising in Germany publicly in a way that is likely to violate the sense of the dignity of these symbols." (emphasis mine)

The rules were created and intended to control the masses, but the elite were always free to interpret those laws in ways they saw fit. Since the nazis wanted to transform the xmas holiday from Christian based to German mythology based, nazi approved symbolism began to appear during the xmas holiday, such as during seasonal parades and parties. In this regard, the use of swastikas, sigrunes and sunwheels as xmas decorations did NOT violate the sense of "dignity" of these symbols since this was in line with what the nazis were promoting (the transformation of xmas from Chrtistian based to German mythology based).
 

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biggymu

Member
Section 1 of the law regulated: "It is forbidden to use the symbols of German history, the German state and the national uprising in Germany publicly in a way that is likely to violate the sense of the dignity of these symbols.

The rules were created and intended to control the masses, but the elite were always free to interpret those laws in ways they saw fit. Since the nazis wanted to transform the xmas holiday from Christian based to German mythology based, nazi approved symbolism began to appear during the xmas holiday, such as during seasonal parades and parties. In this regard, the use of swastikas, sigrunes and sunwheels as xmas decorations did NOT violate the sense of "dignity" of these symbols since this was in line with what the nazis were promoting (the transformation of xmas from Chrtistian based to German mythology based).
In all of the photos you have posted with period trees in them, ornament are clearly visible. The details are not able to be seen. Who’s to say what is on them?
 

M45

Well-known member
I don't think the issue was - "find us a period photo of a swastika xmas ornament before we will accept them as authentic".

I think the issue was - 'my swaz ornaments were not even legitimate for the TR era due to the law for the protection of National Symbols. Thus, according to Peter U.'s opinion, they were either pre Nazi control (1/33) or postwar.'

But since the Nazis wanted to transform Christian Xmas into a Germanic solstice holiday, Germanic/Nazi symbolism was encouraged during the holiday. Thus the swaz tree topper in the previous photos shows that the dignity of National symbols was NOT violated with their use as xmas decorations.

IMO Walter's silvery faux xmas ornaments including the goofy Hitler head are all fake and cast extraordinary doubt on the few surviving originals. I do believe the Hitler head to be a fantasy piece.
 

CanadianAR

Maple Syrup Mod Eh
Staff member
Hitlers image was licensed to make him money as well. Obviously in this case , it isn’t his likeness, prehaps the swastika was licensed as well which would fit with Peters thoughts that Kitch items were maybe not prohibited but needed licensing?

I personally don’t believe in them. Period literature I’ve read which has mention about Christmas ? No mention of anything like this. Also the old “from a vet at a show” has certainly been proven to not lend any credence to originality.
 

M45

Well-known member
Hitlers image was licensed to make him money as well. Obviously in this case , it isn’t his likeness, prehaps the swastika was licensed as well which would fit with Peters thoughts that Kitch items were maybe not prohibited but needed licensing?

I personally don’t believe in them. Period literature I’ve read which has mention about Christmas ? No mention of anything like this. Also the old “from a vet at a show” has certainly been proven to not lend any credence to originality.
Your mention of 'faith' in regard to TR collecting worries me. We have seen that before with painted names/unit/FPNr information and camos. No verifiable vet provenance or paint testing, yet they are accepted as authentic by many.
That is called FAITH my brother ! I agree with you in one sense; if you are not comfortable collecting something, then stay away from it.
It's just a bit of a pet peeve when others in the hobby not only tell you your stuff is fake, but that it never existed :) as if they had been there to verify it.
 

Peter U

Moderator
Staff member
Like with all mythical things there is some truth to the story, in the 1930's there were enemal signs, the Black Forest area made beautiful woodcarving sculptures, they made porcelain dishes,....etc; I read about the NSDAP anti kitsch laws when I was 14 years old or so in a book about the rise of Facsime in Europe and never forget about it, it seems the suppliers of the fake dealers did too and they used the examples in this book as a template for their rubish that they peddle with solid vet provenance or "I found it in an attic in Europe".
This is perhaps the most important part of that online article I posted:

"After the seizure of power, various items such as jewelry, boxes, thimbles, egg cups, clothes buttons, Christmas baubles, wine bottles, shoehorns, plates and cutlery with swastikas, images of the leader and various Nazi symbols were produced, exhibited and offered for sale. A law was supposed to prevent the National Socialist state or the NSDAP from being “dragged through the mud” or made ridiculous.

Lists with the objected and prohibited items were published in the Reichsanzeiger and in the Reichsministerialblatt."


The "Reichsministerialblatt" is the perfect document to make forgeries because it gives you a list of what was actually made and sold prior to May 1933 before it became illegal, all kinds of cheaply made and easy to (re)produce things, the fakers guideline for all kinds of objects modern day swastika lovers like and the famous Swastike Christmas baubles are on this list, btw so is that Hitler head Christmas bauble.


So M45, I did more to proof that they existed, that they were made and sold prior to May 1933 then you did, because you didn't go any further then "it is real because I got them from a vet", a line we all have heard too many times to proof dodgy stuff is authentic.
Back to the Swastika Christmas baubles, so they were produced and sold prior to May 1933, because Christmas is celebrated in December and people in Germany put up there traditional Christmas tree a week or two before Christmas we can safely asume that they were sold just prior to this date.
Now their are some questions:
- How many were made?
- How successfull was the sale of these?
- And the main question is how many did survive?
If we approach these questions with the same attitude most collectors of 3R objects have when it comes to other Nazi related objects like SA-daggers, German Cross in Gold medals,....etc the production run must have been large, almost all homes in Germany had them, thousends of GI's took them back to the USA with them after 1945 as warsouvenirs and most importantly Walter K found the unsold stock a few years ago, so they are available for the masses.




The Nazi kitsch item is a kind of religious token, you believe in them or you don't because their is no way to proof that in this case a cheaply made Christmas bauble with a large swastika on it was made in 1932 or in 2002, simply because it is still made in the same way now as it was in the 1930's, perhaps not in Germany but in a factory in China, who is going to pay for a scientific investigation of a 2€ object to proof its authenticity?


Just like I can't proof that the ground dug canonball in my display cabinet is from the Waterloo campaign, M45 can't proof to us that his Chrimas baubles are pre 1932, in both cases we either believe the story of the guy that found it or we don't.
This is also a good example that the fake peddler Walter K does more damage to the hobby then what we see at first glance.
 
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CanadianAR

Maple Syrup Mod Eh
Staff member
Your mention of 'faith' in regard to TR collecting worries me. We have seen that before with painted names/unit/FPNr information and camos. No verifiable vet provenance or paint testing, yet they are accepted as authentic by many.
That is called FAITH my brother ! I agree with you in one sense; if you are not comfortable collecting something, then stay away from it.
It's just a bit of a pet peeve when others in the hobby not only tell you your stuff is fake, but that it never existed :) as if they had been there to verify it.
Well with helmet paint etc there’s comparable, etc, and people have more or less decided they are real. But agreed, without testing I guess there’s no irrefutable proof. But with these, all the other comparable s are laughable fakes.

Your only evidence is the exact same evidence that caused the champagne rune scandal. Vet sourced…….

They could be real, I’m not saying they 100% aren’t, but they fall into the realm of, prove they are real, not prove they are fake. For me anyways.
 

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