This sentence sums it all up.
Xmas ornaments from Hilter's tree
- Thread starter M45
- Start date
Said another way perhaps ......
"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof" - Christopher Hitchens
Scharf
Well-known member
Hello!
I don't quite agree with this assessment, on a personal note I have found fieldgear for which there's no written documents nor period evidence in photos or in advertisements and yet, there's no doubt they are period and were used by a soldier at the time. I don't think that the "it's not true if there's no period evidence" argument should become a rule of thumb. This is especially true within the last years of the war where few pictures were taken and few official documents survived. Of course here it's a whole other debate.
GunKraut
Senior Member
A famous man once said:
"As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don’t know we don’t know."
So, there you have it, gentlemen.
Here's a nice magazine I faked. Will probably sell for big $$$ on Gunporker if presented with the right "late war development" bullshit story.
https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/g41-25rd-mg13-trench-magazine.40986/
"As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don’t know we don’t know."
So, there you have it, gentlemen.
Here's a nice magazine I faked. Will probably sell for big $$$ on Gunporker if presented with the right "late war development" bullshit story.
https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/g41-25rd-mg13-trench-magazine.40986/
M45
Well-known member
As WWII was ending and after for some time, the entire country of Germany was basically looted by allied troops hunting for souvenirs (such as in attics of damaged houses). These souvenirs today run the gambit of very common to very rare. Most collectors today, even those who have been at it for a number of decades, have never come across most of these very rare items (yet they exist nonetheless).
Most collectors, understandably, prefer the very commonly acquired items - uniforms, medals, helmets, weapons, other field equipment, etc... There is networking with other collectors, collector guides, and a large selection to choose from. Comfort in numbers.
But to demand this irrefutable proof from those who collect the extremely rare before the items will be accepted (or claim they never existed) seems a bit childish. If you are not comfortable in such a realm, do not collect there.
Kitsch items definition -
- Pieces of art or other objects that appeal to popular or uncultivated taste, as in being garish or overly sentimental. ... The definition of kitsch is a form of art that is an inferior, often gaudy, imitation of a famous piece of art that is created for popular appeal. (google definitions, their emphasis)
- Kitsch (/kɪtʃ/ KITCH; loanword from German)[a][1] is a term applied to art and design that is perceived as naïve imitation, gratuitous, or of banal taste.[2][3]
According to early critical theory, kitsch provides immediate gratification based on contrived sentiment. Behind a culture industry, kitsch works to pacify difference, or social complexity, and engender a psychological interdependence with homogenous consumerism. (wikipedia)
I will have to disagree that the items in contention are kitsch items. As we heard earlier from a member, the swaz bulbs hold a strong similarity to ornaments produced in the 1950s. Upon close examination of these, it is apparent that they were factory produced (made to standards) intended to be used as xmas decorations and not cheap knock-offs to satisfy allied souvenir hunters (kitsch). Since they were made to standards just like the real thing, even down to the aged metal fittings, then it is likely they ARE the real thing (not cheap knock-offs).
I have no doubt the factory needed special permission to make these due to the law for the preservation of National symbols. But considering how the national socialists were nazifying xmas, that permission would have been easily acquired.
World Wars tend to break a lot of things (glass things especially), and during allied occupation German families wanted to distance themselves from the nazi regime by getting rid of everything with a swaz. There were apparently piles of this stuff, nazi xmas decorations included.
But as it is even today, nobody really wants used xmas decorations (kind of like used underwear), and so most of this was likely passed over for more durable souvenirs like silverware, plaques, flags, etc... The rest was taken to the trash heap and/or burned. Once the more durable/desirable souvenirs were gone, the nazi xmas stuff had long since disappeared, thus the rarity today.
The vet acquisition story was once very reliable and became less so over time. But back in 1977 it was still pretty legitimate.
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M45, so according to your theory, the law of May 1933 which was especially written and pushed on to the books by Goebbels himself to prevent the production of them got amended to allow the production of them????
When was this done? After their defeat before the gates of Moscow, when they needed something to uplift their moral?
Do you have any proof? Or are you just brainstorming theories?
To sum up the factual story of the Swasitka Christmas bauble:
- Produced by an unknown entrepreneur that saw an opportunity to make a Pfenning from the Nazi's coming to power in 1932.
- The quantity of what was made and sold is unknown but we know that Goebbels didn't like them and they ended up on the kitsch list of the NSDAP.
- In May 1933 a law was published that made the production and sales of them illegal.
And finally in 2015 Walter K buys the unsold stock from one of his pickers in Eastern Europe to provide all collectors with according to his buddy Thomas W "all original" Nazi Christmas decorations.
The irony lays in the fact that the "dream team" of the swastika fans actually hated them and went as far as writing a specially law to abolish the production and sales of them.
And M45, that you don't consider them kitsch doesn't matter, according to Goebbels they were and in the end it was his opinion that really mattered.
When was this done? After their defeat before the gates of Moscow, when they needed something to uplift their moral?
Do you have any proof? Or are you just brainstorming theories?
To sum up the factual story of the Swasitka Christmas bauble:
- Produced by an unknown entrepreneur that saw an opportunity to make a Pfenning from the Nazi's coming to power in 1932.
- The quantity of what was made and sold is unknown but we know that Goebbels didn't like them and they ended up on the kitsch list of the NSDAP.
- In May 1933 a law was published that made the production and sales of them illegal.
And finally in 2015 Walter K buys the unsold stock from one of his pickers in Eastern Europe to provide all collectors with according to his buddy Thomas W "all original" Nazi Christmas decorations.
The irony lays in the fact that the "dream team" of the swastika fans actually hated them and went as far as writing a specially law to abolish the production and sales of them.
And M45, that you don't consider them kitsch doesn't matter, according to Goebbels they were and in the end it was his opinion that really mattered.
M45
Well-known member
How the Nazis stole Christmas
Presents wrapped in paper covered with Nazi symbols nestling beneath a tree adorned with swastikas and grenade-shaped baubles: welcome to Christmas under Adolf Hitler's Third Reich.
www.telegraph.co.uk
How the Nazis stole Christmas
Presents wrapped in paper covered with Nazi symbols nestling beneath a tree adorned with swastikas and grenade-shaped baubles: welcome to Christmas under Adolf Hitler's Third Reich.By Francois Becker, in Cologne for AFP 15 December 2009 • 11:21am
Back to reality....
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Gerst
Senior Member
Quite frankly, I don’t know about that. Even when we know, we don’t understand.
M45
Well-known member
Kitsch items definition -M45, so according to your theory, the law of May 1933 which was especially written and pushed on to the books by Goebbels himself to prevent the production of them got amended to allow the production of them????
When was this done? After their defeat before the gates of Moscow, when they needed something to uplift their moral?
Do you have any proof? Or are you just brainstorming theories?
To sum up the factual story of the Swasitka Christmas bauble:
- Produced by an unknown entrepreneur that saw an opportunity to make a Pfenning from the Nazi's coming to power in 1932.
- The quantity of what was made and sold is unknown but we know that Goebbels didn't like them and they ended up on the kitsch list of the NSDAP.
- In May 1933 a law was published that made the production and sales of them illegal.
And finally in 2015 Walter K buys the unsold stock from one of his pickers in Eastern Europe to provide all collectors with according to his buddy Thomas W "all original" Nazi Christmas decorations.
The irony lays in the fact that the "dream team" of the swastika fans actually hated them and went as far as writing a specially law to abolish the production and sales of them.
And M45, that you don't consider them kitsch doesn't matter, according to Goebbels they were and in the end it was his opinion that really mattered.
- Pieces of art or other objects that appeal to popular or uncultivated taste, as in being garish or overly sentimental. ... The definition of kitsch is a form of art that is an inferior, often gaudy, imitation of a famous piece of art that is created for popular appeal. (google definitions, their emphasis)
- Kitsch (/kɪtʃ/ KITCH; loanword from German)[a][1] is a term applied to art and design that is perceived as naïve imitation, gratuitous, or of banal taste.[2][3]
Once again, you are assuming my na-zee bulbs are kitsch, when they do not fit the definition of kitsch. They are not inferior in quality to regular xmas bulbs, they were manufactured to the same standards, and they are not imitations of something.
What the law to protect the dignity of national symbols was referring to IMO, was something like a cheap pressed-board ornament adorned with gaudy swazes and caricatures of Hitler. Such cheap gaudy brick-a-brac made the nazi regime look silly and is what offended them. This was what the law was intended to prevent - kitsch that made the regime look silly.
What the regime did want was the transformation of xmas from a Christian holiday to a Germanic solstice holiday. Thus Odin replaced Santa Clause, Hitler replaced Christ as savior. This also involved the introduction of nazi approved symbolism during the winter holiday such as the swastika, sunwheel, and sig rune. Xmas tree bulbs with those symbols fit right in with what the regime wanted, as long as they were quality production and did not offend the nazi sense of "dignity".
What Walter K.'s junk bulbs did was poison the minds of collectors who would have been otherwise at least open to the idea that nazi xmas bulbs existed and possibly had survived to today.
But now with his junk everywhere, collectors seem to have gone to the extreme, now doubting that such things ever existed.
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Warrior1354
ax - hole
I hate to say it this thread is starting to morph into a shooterike thread. Like arguing with a brick wall. We're showing legitimate evidence that these ornaments should not have existed at the time, because it would have been against party standards. Not to mention the pictures posted show no evidence of these type of ornaments with the swastika, or any Nazi symbol on a tree anywhere. So far I see Hitler having breakfast in front of a Christmas tree, a guy that looks like the Nazi version of Santa Claus, Girls behind Nazi Santa Claus that almost look like Pocahontas, and a couple others. And the old story I got this from a vet that brought them back from Germany.
Right now you have a better chance of proving that Hitler was a rapper during WW2, than you do making these Christmas ornaments legitimate.
Right now you have a better chance of proving that Hitler was a rapper during WW2, than you do making these Christmas ornaments legitimate.
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M45, it ends here for me.
They existed, made in a very short period, for Christmas 1932 most likely, in an unknown quantity by an unknown maker, but it was enough to upset Goebbels and less then six months later they were by law illegal objects in Germany.
(I gave you an online link to the law that prohibited the production and sales of Swastika baubles. For me that is it, documented evidence.)
Are your examples part of the batch that was made and sold prior to May 1933?
I don't know and I'am pretty sure you don't know too because just like with Christmas itself it is what you want to believe.
I sure will apologize if you can put some evidence in this thread like a link that the Anti-Kitsch law of May 1933, that specificly prohibitated the production and sales of them was amended to allow the production of these Swastika Christmas baubles or a text or a link to a text that the NSDAP promoted the use of them.
Have you read a book about this subject matter or at least done a google search on what the NSDAP policy was on the commercial use of their symbols and the "Nazi Anti-Kitsch Law"? Or is your focus on how the Nazi's celebrated Christmas?
They existed, made in a very short period, for Christmas 1932 most likely, in an unknown quantity by an unknown maker, but it was enough to upset Goebbels and less then six months later they were by law illegal objects in Germany.
(I gave you an online link to the law that prohibited the production and sales of Swastika baubles. For me that is it, documented evidence.)
Are your examples part of the batch that was made and sold prior to May 1933?
I don't know and I'am pretty sure you don't know too because just like with Christmas itself it is what you want to believe.
I sure will apologize if you can put some evidence in this thread like a link that the Anti-Kitsch law of May 1933, that specificly prohibitated the production and sales of them was amended to allow the production of these Swastika Christmas baubles or a text or a link to a text that the NSDAP promoted the use of them.
Have you read a book about this subject matter or at least done a google search on what the NSDAP policy was on the commercial use of their symbols and the "Nazi Anti-Kitsch Law"? Or is your focus on how the Nazi's celebrated Christmas?
bonemorrow98
Member
Warrior1354
ax - hole
My favorite old argument heard over the years: " Well how can this not be real were you there sonny! I have been collecting for over 50 years you weren't even born yet, they had this stuff back then! Plus I knew the gentleman that brought it home!"
bonemorrow98
Member
At least we got Beatboxing Hitler out of it..
