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1925 Gew98 Simson Suhl --- any help?

J

jboscobuys

Member
Heya everyone. I have a Gew 98 that was handed down through the family to me that was sent home during WWII by my grandfather. I've had it for a number of years, but my love of hunting has been rekindled and so has my curiousity about this gun.

It it is marked Simson & Co Suhl 1925 ... (eagle)3681. This serial number is repeated on the stock, barrel, receiver, end cap near bayonette retainer, rear sight, the bottom of the ammo plate near the trigger, and the front sling retainer. The bolt however is identified as 0166 and the bayonette & scabbord both say BT3 ... serial 13228.

I don't have a lot of knowledge regarding Gews/Kars , so I was coming here to see if anyone might assist. I'd be happy to take some pictures and post them if it will help and if you have questions for me, shoot! You might have to dumb down some of your responses regarding location stamps??? ETc... because I've tried reading a few posts and wasn't 100% certain what they were referring to in a couple of instances.

Thanks in advance and looking forward to any info you might provide! Cheers!
James

-----Added Images------- (hosted elsewhere so you could Zoom in if you need to) ------------

http://img145.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98fu.jpg/ - Entire Gun Right Side

http://img140.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98br.jpg/ - Head Stamp & Date and Caliber up top?

http://img836.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98bu.jpg/ - Butt Right Side w Symbol & Date?

http://img145.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98bu.jpg/ - Butt Bottom with Symbol & Serial

http://img812.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98bu.jpg/ - Strange Symbol Bottom of Butt near Trigger Guard

http://img266.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98am.jpg/ - Ammo Plate Bottom

http://img291.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98br.jpg/ - 3 eagles Right side of Breech

http://img208.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98si.jpg/ - 3 Eagles Right side of Barrel Near Sight

http://img831.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98si.jpg/ - S,s Under Sight

http://img210.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98br.jpg/ - Breech Left Side Serial & Barrel Serial

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/444/simsonsuhlco1925gew98br.jpg - Breech Left Side - Gew98 & Serial

http://img214.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98re.jpg/ - Another serial match

http://img820.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98bo.jpg/ - Bolt - different Serial

http://img502.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98ba.jpg/ - Gun w Bayon & Scab

http://img109.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98ba.jpg/ - Bayon Logo one side

http://img145.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98ba.jpg/ - Bayon other side with small stamp?

http://img402.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98ba.jpg/ - Scabbard Stamp

http://img694.imageshack.us/i/simsonsuhlco1925gew98ba.jpg/ - Bayon & Scabbard Serials
 
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Welcome aboard! By all means, post some photos. The 1925 dated Simson rifles are very rare and desirable, especially if original configuration. Start by just posting some basic shots of the code and such, we can lead you from there. You don't want to alter this one for hunting, it's valuable.
 
Thanks for responding so fast! I'll get some pictures up Monday as we've got family and such coming over this evening and I'm going out pheasant hunting tomorrow! Sure appreciate your touching base and look forward to this!!
 
mrfarb said:
Welcome aboard! By all means, post some photos. The 1925 dated Simson rifles are very rare and desirable, especially if original configuration. Start by just posting some basic shots of the code and such, we can lead you from there. You don't want to alter this one for hunting, it's valuable.
Click to expand...

Heya! I posted some images... have a number more but seemed a lot to post! LOL. I've uploaded them to image shack so that you can ZOOM in if you need to because some things are hard to see when resized small enough to post here locally.

Thanks in advance and I'm so damn excited to hear anything you have to say!!
 
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Kar98b

Nice pics and really neat rifle. I am sure Mike would like to get this into his chapter on the 98b! Thanks for posting.
 
You have a very special rifle there, and very rare. From what I know there are only about 5000 made, and very few survived! Your grandfather knew how to pick them!

The Simson & Co. Suhl rifles were the only authorized rifles built during the Weimar era. It's a very long story, hard to type that much- suffice to say the Simson family was Jewish and the factory was taken from them by the Nazi's in 1935-36 timeframe. During the Weimar era they were allowed to manufacture rifle to arm the Weimar Reichsheer, which was a limited force.

I am a student of the Simson rifles- the one person who knows more than most is a moderator here, Simson-Suhl. He surely can give you detailed information about your rifle!

Mike
 
I agree, a wonderful rifle, and damn scarce in this condition. While all dated Simson Kar98b are especially desirable (dated command a premium over the non-dated 1926-1931 manufactured rifles), 1925 is by far the most commonly encountered of the dated rifles.

However VERY few survived in the condition yours did. It is pretty darn well as it left Simson, minus the bolt of course (the bayonet is not German and has no association with its German past- not sure what country it's from, but they are unrelated beyond what connection your grandfather gave the set).

As for general Kar98b production totals, 1924 is by far the scarcest, with an estimated 1000-2500 made (difference is where the highest known leaves off and the lowest 1925 picks up- at least 900, but possibly 2000 or more). 1925 at least 8000 made minimum, possibly 9000 or more (same reason); 1926 is rarest "dated" but its reasonable to conclude dating stopped early after 1926 started and most 1926 are not dated. Average production 1924-1931 would be about 7000-9000 a year dividing known production by years believed manufactured.

Your rifle has what looks to be a nazi era depot mark on the buttstock, "eagle/Ws1" which would represent the depot at Wels Austria. Several Gew.98 are known so marked, but this is the first 98b. Some of the acceptance markings on the stock are a little odd to what I have seen before, but clearly Simson acceptance.
This rifle is VERY early, and very few rifles this early survived with original stocks, but DaveD has a 1924 and a 6k block 1925 that shows the correctness of this stock. The "eagle-14" on the side above the acceptance & E/H is quite correct, but the wrist marking is somewhat unique to me. (almost like E/6WaA?)

Anyway, very cool rifle and I only know of half a dozen this original 1924-1926, and DaveD owns two of them and ScottB another. Mike is good friends with Dave, perhaps he can get Dave to show us his rifles- he has the finest 1924 by far I know of, - super early 3xx block, and there was a thread on DD forum that showed this rifle is some detail (not the greatest pics, but decent)
 
You guys rock. Thanks for the information mrfarb & SS. I wish I had more data on it's history, but it was shipped back while my grandfather was serving in Italy, Lake Como during the war. It sat in my Aunt Vi's closet forgotten upon his return and was there until she passed away. Uncle John found it and gave it to my mother (being her father's) and she gave it to me on my 30th birthday that same year.

I immediately took it to a gunsmith and had the bore, headspace, barrel etc checked. He wanted to buy it and said that it was in great condition. He even gave me some military rounds to put through it (which I did). I've only shot about 50 rounds through it, over the years, but she shoots beautifully and the military rounds definitely make mince meat of the winchester 8mm mausers that I bought later. What surprised me was how deep the rifling groves are in the barrel as compared to modern guns.

Sure appreciate the feedback. Wish I could contribute more if I could. Do you guys think I should get this insured and if so... for how much? Never really thought about placing a value on it or adding it to my homeowners policy because I thought these guns were a dime a dozen. Also... I noticed little rust patches here and there... small, but noticable when photographed (camera captured it even though I can't see it with my naked eyes). Should I try to have it removed professionally or would that be a bad idea?

Appreciate your posting the links to the images (waiting for authorization so that I can view them). If you need better images or want them for your book, just let me know. I took these with a little electronic, but my Aunt has a professional Canon which I'm sure she would let me borrow... and I can blow off some of the dust/animal hair/carpet lint if you prefer!

Atcha later... gotta go play in the snow a bit.
 
The bayonet looks like a pre-war Serbian M1924 bayonet. BT3 is cyrillic for VTZ, Vojno Technicki Zavod (or Military Technical Institute), in Kragujevac, Serbia. You also see these marked AT3 (or Artillery Technical Institute), an older name for VTZ. Its appears to be in very nice condition.

If you do not know what you are doing, it is generally better to simply leave the rust alone. If you do decide to do anything, do not use steel wool. Use an oil like Kroil or Ballistol and gently remove the rust with bronze wool. Steel wool will scratch the metal and damage the finish.

Be careful with 'old military ammo'. It may be corrosive and the salts it leaves in the bore will eat at the metal if not cleaned properly. If it is old Eastern European surplus, make sure that you thoroughly wash the bore and bolt face with water after shooting.

Oh, and nice gun! :thumbsup:
 
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I COMPLETELY agree.

The less you do the better, and steel wool, even the finest grades can be seriously detrimental to blued metal. Unless the rust is substantial, I would leave it alone and keep the rifle metal well oiled, especially the rust areas- most importantly monitor the rifle.

Improper cleaning is something that can turn a $2000 rifle into a $600 rifle in about a couple hours.

Not sure on the value, as these early rifles, with original stocks do not show up for sale often. I would say low $2000, high $3000 plus. Not sure how accurate that is but if it were mine, I would not sell it for less. If you found the original bolt, you could seriously increase the rifles value- imo.

Ditto on the ammo, much of it is corrosive and not good to use in a high quality rifle unless proper cleaning is done. There is good surplus ammo that performs as well, but is non-corrosive, some of the Portuguese ammo is great, though you hear mixed reveiws on it. Mine I bought in 1984, and it is flawless, and everything you could want - surplus performance and non-corrosive.



RyanE said:
If you do not know what you are doing, it is generally better to simply leave the rust alone. If you do decide to do anything, do not use steel wool. Use an oil like Kroil or Ballistol and gently remove the rust with bronze wool. Steel wool will scratch the metal and damage the finish.

Be careful with 'old military ammo'. It may be corrosive and the salts it leaves in the bore will eat at the metal if not cleaned properly. If it is old Eastern European surplus, make sure that you thoroughly wash the bore and bolt face with water after shooting.

Oh, and nice gun!
Click to expand...
 
Damn... thanks for that info to both of you. I'm a little bit of a perfectionist sometimes and might have been tempted to do something about the rust because it's been bugging me ever since I noticed it yesterday. I actually just got done cleaning the barrel and oiling it a moment ago before reading your feedback. I was tempted to take my brass cleaning rod from my 40cal and work some of the rusty areas, but changed my mind. Glad I did.

I'll go online and look for a good oil for longterm storage and see if there's any advice for guns besides a moisture free environment. Well... gotta get to cleaning my shot gun. Just got a new Winchester 101 12 guage and need to go over her once or twice before taking her out. Guns can be so much easier on men than women... even when you treat both of them right!!! I got lucky in both departments!

Atcha all in a bit!!
 
jboscobuys said:
I'll go online and look for a good oil for longterm storage and see if there's any advice for guns besides a moisture free environment. Well... gotta get to cleaning my shot gun. Just got a new Winchester 101 12 guage and need to go over her once or twice before taking her out. Guns can be so much easier on men than women... even when you treat both of them right!!! I got lucky in both departments!

Atcha all in a bit!!
Click to expand...

IMHO, Ballistol oil is among the best for long term storage. I have seen several corrosion tests conducted with various gun oils, and Ballistol is always at or very near the top. It is non-toxic and and may in fact be magical.:biggrin1: I also put my rifles in a treated gun sock. Bore-Stores are my personal choice.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=22502/Product/SPORTSMAN_S_OIL
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1850/Product/BORE_STORES_LONG_TERM_STORAGE_CASES
 
Thank you Ryan... I will definitely buy some of that oil. Wish I would have known about it years ago when I first got her. Appreciate the help!
 
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