a couple of 317k's for serial reference..

[mauser99]

As we all know simson,bsw,gustloff serial numbers are one long continuous serial range.. These two commercial 317k sporting rifles fall in that line as these were shared in that range. BSW 199214 just before the 200,000 range Important to note the end Of the w625 series and beginning of the KKW series. Then a Gustloff 317K ser# 256777 nearing the later part of the KKW production. One reason its so hard to nail down production on the w625 series and kkw from this maker. They sprinkled in other models as they saw fit. Or when orders came up..

 

[Nicole Wiley]

A particularly crowded area- late 1938

I agree with you that there are no sure bets placed on guessing when other models would be blocked for serial numbers in the kleinkaliber range.

 

[luftmacher]

That is because there simply was no "blocking" of numbers in Simson/BSW numbering; they were simply entered into continuous .22 numbering line when and as produced. Think I mentioned this before, but here is the "why" behind that range of numbers at BSW, straight from the horse's mouth.
Early 1937 recap of previous year's sales and projections for the future. Note that the KKW is already a known factor, although design was not set yet at this time. The 625B was known to be a dead end and was to be cleared out/sold off. The 625C was admittedly known to be a dead end also, and although they don't give it up, they are warned to hold off of production because they KNOW it will not be accepted. DSMs are still not only APPROVED for sale, but REQUIRED until the KKW comes out. The 317k production just happens to fall in here, but was also known not to be a contender for the new design.
Steve

 

[luftmacher]

BSW had several factors controlling their production of trainers. First of all, Simson (from whom they had stolen the company) already had several excellent designs of .22 rifles in production, and were the only firm allowed to produce arms which were to be used by the military (thus, no military involvement in DSM project from beginning---circumvented by going through SA with no connection to RWM). They understandably did not push the DSM at any time; it was not their design, they were not tooled up for it, they were already busy with other work without it, but since they were run by and owned by the SA and the SA wanted the DSM, they were forced to produce it. They had more good reason to brown-nose the Brown Shirts than anyone else. With the early dissatisfaction with the DSM voiced by elements of the SA, they adapted their 625 B model into the 625 C in hopes of snagging that replacement design. My guess is that the former Simson employees were apprehensive about working with their new SA admin, concerned about their employment, and reluctant to make any extravagant changes themselves. There is little evidence of much enthusiasm in their design department. Overall, it would appear that everyone was treading on thin ice at BSW during this period.
Mauser engineers toyed with adaptations of design for a universal trainer, simply because it was their design and they were responsible. They obviously did not want the bother of it at the time, as they had plenty to do with BIG contracts from the RWM which made trainers "small potatoes" and MOST IMPORTANTLY the budget for this item which was set by the SA made their desired product a virtual IMPOSSIBILTY.
It is no wonder that BSW ended up as the primary firm in the KKW design. They stood foremost to gain from this. Mauser did not need or want it; small firms had by this time acquired plenty of work that was more promising, otherwise. BSW wound up leading the KKW contracting simply because they were the only ones who would benefit from it in any manner. Walther only fell into the last KKW contracts because BSW had "borrowed" the Walther spring-loaded ramp design, and without asking.
Mauser's participation was obligatory, all the way through (DSM through KKW). BSW/Gustloff was also, but the reasoning of it is 180 degrees apart.

 

[tiger_jedi]

BSW had several factors controlling their production of trainers. First of all, Simson (from whom they had stolen the company) already had several excellent designs of .22 rifles in production, and were the only firm allowed to produce arms which were to be used by the military (thus, no military involvement in DSM project from beginning---circumvented by going through SA with no connection to RWM). They understandably did not push the DSM at any time; it was not their design, they were not tooled up for it, they were already busy with other work without it, but since they were run by and owned by the SA and the SA wanted the DSM, they were forced to produce it. They had more good reason to brown-nose the Brown Shirts than anyone else. With the early dissatisfaction with the DSM voiced by elements of the SA, they adapted their 625 B model into the 625 C in hopes of snagging that replacement design. My guess is that the former Simson employees were apprehensive about working with their new SA admin, concerned about their employment, and reluctant to make any extravagant changes themselves. There is little evidence of much enthusiasm in their design department. Overall, it would appear that everyone was treading on thin ice at BSW during this period.
Mauser engineers toyed with adaptations of design for a universal trainer, simply because it was their design and they were responsible. They obviously did not want the bother of it at the time, as they had plenty to do with BIG contracts from the RWM which made trainers "small potatoes" and MOST IMPORTANTLY the budget for this item which was set by the SA made their desired product a virtual IMPOSSIBILTY.
It is no wonder that BSW ended up as the primary firm in the KKW design. They stood foremost to gain from this. Mauser did not need or want it; small firms had by this time acquired plenty of work that was more promising, otherwise. BSW wound up leading the KKW contracting simply because they were the only ones who would benefit from it in any manner. Walther only fell into the last KKW contracts because BSW had "borrowed" the Walther spring-loaded ramp design, and without asking.
Mauser's participation was obligatory, all the way through (DSM through KKW). BSW/Gustloff was also, but the reasoning of it is 180 degrees apart.

Highly interesting!

I'm more and more impatient to have THE new book at home...

 

[the plumber]

I have ser# 200881 with sling canvas case capture papers if that helps

 

[Nicole Wiley]

200881, 201xxx range, and two more Wettkampftage 1939 confirmations

The Plumber, what model is your sn 200881?
Also, has anyone seen a BSW in the 210xxx serial range? I've recorded tons of numbers, but none in that range. Makes me wonder.
A fun range for me to look for has been the 209498 thru 209750 range- these are BSW KKWs engraved on top of the barrels for the Wettkampftage of the SA Gruppe Kurpfalz in 1939. I seen two more this past weekend at the SOS! Both marked the same; the bottom line reads "SA-FÜHRER D. GRUPPE KP". I now strongly believe that all engraved with the Kurpfalz leader's title on them are within 60 rifles, because they all fall in between serial numbers 209540 and 209599. If this trend is correct, there are more multiples of the others with different bottom lines. My educated guess is that 27 rifles have this 1939 Wettkampftage engraving on them.

 

[mauser99]

s/a gruppe Kurpfalz was if not the most prolific marker of their training rifles.. As I have seen more rifles with this gruppe than any other.. Second to only Niedersachsen. This may have a lot to do with Geography and the likelihood they were taken home by G.i.'s after the war..

The plumbers example is a 317k if I remember correctly..

 

[denny gaither]

s/a gruppe Kurpfalz was if not the most prolific marker of their training rifles.. As I have seen more rifles with this gruppe than any other.. Second to only Niedersachsen. This may have a lot to do with Geography and the likelihood they were taken home by G.i.'s after the war..

The plumbers example is a 317k if I remember correctly..

Wayne, I suspect you and Nicole may be comparing apples to oranges. I agree with you that stock cartouche marked SA Gruppe Kurpfalz rifles are often seen, but my personal experience is that the barrel engraved Wettkampftage rifles are extremely rare. My observation only.

 

[mauser99]

this thread is kinda jumbled up.. But, at least we have some conversation going....

My main reason for posting the above rifles is I've been tracking serial numbers for quite some time in this Simson,BSW,Gustloff serial # train that never stops.. Trying to narrow down where one starts and one stops and get production figures.. This type of serial progression that runs through different models as the range progresses makes it even harder to nail down a production figure..

Like BSW/Gustloff KKW's from 199*** through 272*** roughly how many 317k's and precision carabiner's and possibly shotguns that also fall in this range and use up some of this production.. I have seen more than a few with E/N proofs denoting post spring of 1940 production but I always cant acquire the serial number..

 

[mauser22]

Consider this:

The Simson/BSW/Gustloff Files in the Archives are the most complete of any of the Thuringian firms we searched out.

There is nothing in them relative to how serial numbering was done to help us.

There was, we have, and have examined closely considerable correspondence with the SA, OSAF, other srelative to the firms efforts to market .22 trainers of all the types they made.

From that it is obvious what the guns have long told us. They made what would sell, when they could sell it, some concurrently, logically in batches. It also is obvious to me from what we can glean from recorded serial numbers, gaps, and where certain models fall that some numbers may have been set aside for certain models that were ultimately never made or sold. So I stick to my guns that not all numbers may have been used.

Something may yet fall out of a crack in Thuringia that will document how serialization was done at Simson/BSW/Gustloff but I doubt it.

It likely will never be an exact science.

The best means to arrive at a good WAG of quantities of numbers on any given model they produced could come from recorded observed numbers.

Take for example a collection as significant as Bob Simpson's or your data base Wayne.

Arrive at the equation of for example Mauser or Walther KKW's recorded vs. (in these two cases) known production, which are represented in recorded observed examples. This is assuming recorded observed examples are commensurate reflections by percentile of production. Apply that factor to observed examples of 625, 625A, B, C, DSM, KKW, etc and you at least will have a SWAG. The sporters not so much due to export markets, numbers captured, recorded etc.

Don't give up the faith and don't let anyone tell you you are beating a dead horse, but estimating production of any model .22 by this firm will at best be a SWAG.

 

[Nicole Wiley]

Shotguns

Wayne, I always thought the serial numbers to be Kleinkalibers only. Can you tell me what models you are talking about? I have no serials for Simson shotguns to reference...
Also, no examples are recorded in the Robert's collection for a BSW Meisterschaftsbüchse or a BSW H.V.(.22 Centerfire in 5.6x35R). Those two models are included because they are featured in period catalogs and pricelists with the other kleinkalibers models. I have them as follows, based on 1933-1940 catalogs:

1. Simson W625
2. Simson W625A
3. Simson W625B
4. Simson Mod. 315
5. Simson Deutsches Sportmodell (DSM)
6. Simson W625Z
7. BSW W625B
8. BSW W625C
9. BSW W625Z
10. BSW Deutsches Sportmodell (DSM)
11. BSW Prazisions-Karabiner Modell I-VI
12. BSW Meisterschaftsbüchse
13. BSW Sportmodell
14. BSW Prazisionskarabiner 315
15. BSW Prazisionskarabiner 316
16. BSW Mod 317k
17. BSW H.V. (.22 Centerfire in 5.6x35R)
18. BSW Kleinkaliber Wehrsportgewehr (KKW)
19. Gustloff Meisterschaftsbüchse
20. Gustloff Mod 317k
21. Gustloff Mod 315
22. Gustloff Prazisionskarabiner
23. Gustloff KKW

 

[mauser22]

BSW HV 22 CF (5.6x35R)

Nicole, I have seen 3 and owned two of these. One via Robert out of Sweden. They are very rare and if well used develop headspace issues, so what few made did not remain in service long. Essentially scaled up split bridge receiver of same pattern but only locking lug is the bolt handle which proved insufficient. Unfortunately both have new homes and failed to keep SN. You might salvage that number from Micheal's file on me. They are in the same range. I had not noted any shotguns in the range.

Here's one in your inventory from 1935 which is not in this range.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?products_id=14641

 

[mauser22]

Shotguns not in same range

You made me look Wayne. Have you a verified Simson/BSW/Gusloff firearm outside .22 rf or CF model that falls in that 6 digit range?

7 BSW era side by sides currently in inventory at Simpson limited in an entirely different 5 digit range running from 395xx up to 49xxx

Enter "bsw double" in search window www.simpsonltd.com

 

[the plumber]

As we all know simson,bsw,gustloff serial numbers are one long continuous serial range.. These two commercial 317k sporting rifles fall in that line as these were shared in that range. BSW 199214 just before the 200,000 range Important to note the end Of the w625 series and beginning of the KKW series. Then a Gustloff 317K ser# 256777 nearing the later part of the KKW production. One reason its so hard to nail down production on the w625 series and kkw from this maker. They sprinkled in other models as they saw fit. Or when orders came up..

wayne or Nicole it is 317K all so have early bsw logo ser#132776 with mix of simson parts simson proof on stock bsw muzzle cover .sold.Bu. on take down disc will try to post pictures just got figure how

 

[kiwitim]

Hi folks , first post here so hello from NZ ! I have recently purchased a BSW 317 k .22 rifle serial number 177074 it looks like a fairly standard sporter

Markings
FLUSS STAHL KRUPP ESSEN
Kal .22 long rifle 177074
MOD 317 K BSW SUHL

on the underside of the barrel just forward of where the stock finishes are 2 very small S stamps
they are not in line , looks like this S
S
hidden under the wood is RA66 most parts have 74 stamped on them
the rifle was not sold to me as a WW2 trainer , was actually more interested in the Krupp stamp but hoping the ss means something ? it appears to be added after the factory markings as one is not struck perfectly and they are not in line? only discovered them when giving it a good clean .

any ideas of when it was produced ? it is not in mint condition but the bore is very good (have not shot it yet) , trigger guard is a replacement and the but pad is cracked with a piece missing , are parts available anywhere ?

Cheers Tim

 

[luftmacher]

Tim, your 317 is PROBABLY an early 1937 product. There were no plans to discontinue that model or hold off on production, as there were for the 625 series at that time. BSW was also discussing the introduction of a new Meisterschaftbüchse by engineer Happ at this time (early April 1936). I do not know for certain if this was the center-fire .22 model or not, but that is possible. The eccentric boring required of Mauser's 340 (and respectively) DSM design to align a centrally mounted firing pin with a rim-fire cartridge was a pet peeve at BSW. The production process for such was more costly and required more effort to produce properly. Plus, it simply was not THEIR design.
The 317s might have been produced in batches to some extent, with a small inventory of finished rifles on hand. That would affect the serial numbering (done as produced and ready for proofing) at BSW, so this adds to the difficulty of dating production versus sale date information.
Steve

 

[kiwitim]

Thanks for the info Luftmarcher ! any idea what the S means ? over here it is seen on ex service rifles and denotes sold out of service?
S

 

[kiwitim]

Some photos

 

[kiwitim]

Sorry can only put one on at a time , with china graph pencil second S is perhaps no what I though any ideas?