Dating BSW trainers

[luftmacher]

The photos below are from a recent on-line auction of a very interesting BSW training rifle. First, note that there is no model designation on the receiver, although this appears to be the W625 action. The stock has a take-down disc in it, and features DSM bands on the fore end.
The serial number comes from mid-1936. In early 1936, Dr. Hoffmann advised the factory administration at BSW to pull the plug on DSM production, for fear they might end up with rifles which could not be sold. Consumer complaints about the DSM had caused most of the contract DSM makers to cease production, and they were by then obtaining military contracts which were more profitable, anyway. BSW's DSM production was in a hiatus for some months, and did not resume until a final push to clear DSM parts from inventory (beginning about the serial number 177xxx range) later on (about May 1937).
This was a very rare example, and someone got it for a good price.

Steve

 

[KKW22cal]

Looks like a nice rifle, would have bid on it if I had seen it especially as it seems to be a variation on the early logo that I have in my collection.

 

[luftmacher]

I think it sold for less than $500, or about that. I was too busy to mess with it at the time.
Steve

 

[mauser99]

I had it earmarked and it was bought and retuned . It had issues and wasn't 100% correct. I thought it may have been some sort of hybrid. The first time it sold it did sell for more then was relisted. Stock was seriously worked over .

If you look closely at the stock it has a take down disc and a cut out for a k98k type sling keeper. This was hand done post war IMHO. Why it had a take down disc is anyone guess. Bubba works in mysterious ways.

 

[luftmacher]

I had it earmarked and it was bought and retuned . It had issues and wasn't 100% correct. I thought it may have been some sort of hybrid. The first time it sold it did sell for more then was relisted. Stock was seriously worked over .

If you look closely at the stock it has a take down disc and a cut out for a k98k type sling keeper. This was hand done post war IMHO. Why it had a take down disc is anyone guess. Bubba works in mysterious ways.

Did not see the gun, only saw the auction and its photos. That said, the serial number still places it where I stated, the receiver marking still makes it a rare bird ('splain that one, Lucy), the stock may have been a change-out at some time (since I have not held it in my hands), but I would have given that price to take it apart. The only way you will really know.

Steve

 

[mauser99]

I will post the auction #. I don't think I took any photos of the keeper cut out ? I saw what I needed to see and that was enough. Someone at some point made it what they wanted it to be. Not a period done job. Seemed to fall into that early B type platform with dsm34 lower band and 625a upper. I have owned one in the past and they are scarce. Maybe made this one in between so NO designation was marked on the receiver ? Receiver shares the same logo as the early DSM34 made by BSW,
I thought it was the missing link and was thrilled to see it. But, it wasn't all it looked to be.


gun broker auction # 663724295 some one with more com-pu-tor skills than me can post the link

 

[Aeisir]

gun broker auction # 663724295 some one with more com-pu-tor skills than me can post the link

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/663724295

 

[luftmacher]

The W625 series exhibited countless inconsistencies in its production, all the way from its beginnings in 1933 before the Simson firm was taken over to the very last W625C that was turned out as the KKW production was beginning. Perhaps more than any of the other trainers, the W625 rifles had more various small features used on perhaps a handful of guns, and then not used for the next several guns, and then sporadically reappear in a hit-and-miss fashion again later. There were no clear dividing points on such small features. This could have resulted from a retailer ordering 25 rifles with a request for some particular feature, or from the selection of parts from inventory by the workmen assembling them, or other reasons. They were not bound to make them in one particular configuration only, as they would have been for the DSMs due to contracted manufacturing rights. It is altogether possible that a stock which had been planned for a DSM was fitted and finished for a W625 action on this particular rifle at this time -- just to use a stock which might otherwise have served no purpose (remember that at this time they were NOT planning to make more DSMs). See what I'm saying? There is no way anyone can say "That stock could not have been put on that action at the factory", and most certainly it could not be said of one made at this particular point in time (mid 1936). I know collectors very badly want to categorize and state that "this rifle made at this time by this company MUST have this feature or else it is bogus" but you just can't do that. It did not work that way as often as you might like to think. A hands-on, personal inspection and disassembly would be the only way to make such a judgement, and even then might not provide a definite conclusion.
Steve

 

[luftmacher]

Another very important thing to remember is that this was assembled at the precise time when BSW was trying desperately to come up with something to present to the SA as a replacement for the DSM. They politicked heavily for their W625 rifles, citing the model's performance and lower cost. It was still declined, however, due to lack of similarity to the K98k. This could have been assembled as a possibility to present to the SA. The receiver with no model designation could suggest that further. BSW did not put a lot of money into R & D for developing a new trainer, but poured a lot of effort into currying favor with SA officials. They used what they had on hand, modified in various ways, in a series of attempts to catch the approval of the SA. Even their first prototype of what was later adapted into the KKW (with changes made by Walther and Mauser) had been constructed from an unsuccessful BSW commercial .22 design of 1937. Trainers were not a huge production item compared to military contracts, and they did not allocate a lot of funding for development of them. The only reason you see so much development money expended by Mauser for the DSM project is because it includes the early 1933 versions which preceded the actual DSM 34.

At any rate, it would make perfect sense, in light of what was transpiring at BSW in 1936, for something of this nature to have been very purposefully assembled.

The more answers you find, the more questions you have.
The more you know, the more you wonder.

Steve

 

[mauser99]

Based off what I saw it was done post war. I had the rifle in hand and made that judgment based off the workmanship of the sling cut out. The stock was heavily sanded and shellacked. Butt plate cleaned ect.ect.ect. Its not a rifle I would have kept @ the time. The more we think the more we second guess what choices we made.
For the price it may have been worth keeping ??? Maybe to some. I think its still a neat example of a ??? model BSW trainer.

As haven't seen any "one off" Simpson, bsw trianers that would fall into a special order category.

The 625 series from what I have seen is a natural progression and minor changes and leftovers being used up as the changes were made. This is fairly common in any gun makers catalog.

 

[KKW22cal]

Based off what I saw it was done post war. I had the rifle in hand and made that judgment based off the workmanship of the sling cut out. The stock was heavily sanded and shellacked. Butt plate cleaned ect.ect.ect. Its not a rifle I would have kept @ the time. The more we think the more we second guess what choices we made.
For the price it may have been worth keeping ??? Maybe to some. I think its still a neat example of a ??? model BSW trainer.

As haven't seen any "one off" Simpson, bsw trianers that would fall into a special order category.

The 625 series from what I have seen is a natural progression and minor changes and leftovers being used up as the changes were made. This is fairly common in any gun makers catalog.

I liked that it did not have a model designation on the receiver which makes it an odd duck in my book. It had a very interesting/different than I have seen on other models. Like that the bolt/receiver match and my eyes don't see the reminiscing from the limited number of pictures. I have less knowledge and years doing this than both Mauser 99 and Luftmaker. I like the discussion as it provides me more insight.

 

[luftmacher]

Based off what I saw it was done post war. I had the rifle in hand and made that judgment based off the workmanship of the sling cut out. The stock was heavily sanded and shellacked. Butt plate cleaned ect.ect.ect. Its not a rifle I would have kept @ the time. The more we think the more we second guess what choices we made.
For the price it may have been worth keeping ??? Maybe to some. I think its still a neat example of a ??? model BSW trainer.

As haven't seen any "one off" Simpson, bsw trianers that would fall into a special order category.

The 625 series from what I have seen is a natural progression and minor changes and leftovers being used up as the changes were made. This is fairly common in any gun makers catalog.

There was no consistent system to variations in small details. Primary reasons for that were the two I stated. The design changes were chronological, of course, and so designated by the letter suffix. That is about it.
Steve