Excellent Beutewaffen capture pile picture, plus questions

[Pat]

I think the pic below has been shown/linked here before, but I never took much time to scrutinize it until today.

First off, there are several captured weapons which are shown thrown in with the expected mass of K98k rifles. Among them are what appear to be a Mosin-Nagant 91/30, several Mannlicher type variants, a possible M95 or M95M in the upper right of the pile, and I think a Dutch Model 1895 rifle in the lower foreground. It's the rifle with almost all of it's attributes visible as it is shown laying across many other rifles without anything on top of it to obscure it's features. Here's where I need a different set of eyes on this...

It appears that the Dutch M1895 has had the lower sling swivel removed. I know that a number of Model 1895's have been reported with this modification, which is usually accompanied by a wood inlay to fill the gap left by the removal of the swivel assembly. It also appears that there is no lower swivel on the rear barrel band, or it's just not visible in the pic. However, the angle at which the rifle is laying should reveal a lower swivel if one was there, as the underside of the rifle is canted towards the camera. Finally, there is a right angled shape, square or close to it, on the right side butt stock. It contrasts enough with the wood around it to be noticeable. If it's what I think it might be, this appears to be a sling slot dish-out of the type that have been reported on some German-modified examples, in which a modified Dutch rifle sling was passed through the slot and secured with a screw into the dish-out on the right side.

This is all conjectural, but the attributes appear consistent. Thoughts? Opinions? I'm not even sure the rifle in question is Dutch, but the relatively larger bolt ball suggests a Dutch Mannlicher to me.

Pat

 

[RyanE]

Its definitely Dutch, and I'm 90% positive its a modified Dutch M95. Rifle length, removed plugged lower swing swivel, no apparent swivel on the rear band, and some thing on the stock that appears to be a stock cutout of some kind. Not 100% on the type, but it looks like the K98k style cutout (what I call a Type 2). There is a second Dutch Mannlicher underneath it, but only the magazine is visible.

This is now only the second known pics of modified rifles in use. Great find.

Officer in the background appears to be Luftwaffe.

 

[Stan]

I do recall seeing this photo posted before (on Gunboard's I think). Many Dutch M95 rifles were ID'd then as well as Mosins, Kar98a and others. Good call on the modified features though! Don't think that came up with the post before.

edit- There looks to be another Dutch M95 rifle further up on the left side of the pile that looks to have also had the lower swivel removed. There looks to be no plug inlay in the swivel space on that one due to the shadowing.

 

[jhv 41]

Interesting picture and there is a thread from awhile back (including input from the late John Wall) on these...

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread...ck-modification-as-a-German-WO-II-booty-rifle

 

[Pat]

Yes, that other rifle does appear to have a missing inlay, or at least it's missing the entire swivel assembly, as you can see the screw holes plainly.

There was another modified M1895 shown on Gunboards awhile back with the square cut stock dish-out that was a bring-back. That rifle still had the Dutch sling attached with a screw through the end that penetrated the dish-out in the stock at the exact same spot as the screw hole seen in other examples. I don't believe there's a KNIL connection (knection...?!! ) with the square cut examples. We're likely seeing two different types of dish-out, with the more sloping relief cut accommodating the frosh on a K98k sling and the square cut accommodating a side slung arrangement for a Dutch made rifle sling, in conjunction with the re-shaped rear barrel band that had the swivel loop turned from the 6 0'clock to the 9 o'clock position. This arrangement echoes what we've already seen done on other types of captured rifles that were rendered to make side sling carry easier.

It's not as easy to see, but I think there might also be the butt stock of a Dutch Oud Model No.4 sticking out there, too. I probably have the type wrong, but it's shown upside down, and is above (from the viewer's perspective) and to the rear of the rifle in question. It appears that it has the angled side sling loop these had installed into the left side of the stock.

I swear, every time I look at this picture I notice something else.
Pat

 

[Stan]

Yes, that other rifle does appear to have a missing inlay, or at least it's missing the entire swivel assembly, as you can see the screw holes plainly.

There was another modified M1895 shown on Gunboards awhile back with the square cut stock dish-out that was a bring-back/'duffel cut.' That rifle still had the Dutch sling attached with a screw through the slim end that penetrated the dish-out in the stock at the exact same spot as the screw hole seen in other examples. I don't believe there's a KNIL connection (knection...?!! ) with the square cut examples. We're likely seeing two different types of dish-out, with the more sloping relief cut accommodating the frosh on a K98k sling and the square cut accommodating a side slung arrangement for a Dutch made rifle sling, in conjunction with the re-shaped rear barrel band that had the swivel loop turned from the 6 0'clock to the 9 o'clock position. This arrangement echoes what we've already seen done on other types of captured rifles that were rendered to make side sling carry easier.

It's not as easy to see, but I think there might also be the butt stock of a Dutch Ould Model No.4 sticking out there, too. I probably have the type wrong, but it's shown upside down, and is above (from the viewer's perspective) and to the rear of the rifle in question. It appears that it has the angled side sling loop these had installed into the left side of the stock.

I swear, every time I look at this picture I notice something else.
Pat

I agree on seeing something new in that photo each time! I think I recall pointing out the poss. Dutch No. 4 carbine when it was posted before. Does look like the wood sided magazine and left side butt stock swivel on that one. The Kar 98a's might also be Polish K98's the more I look! Hard to see the stacking hook styles clearly. In any case, a real "smorgasbord" of rifle types in those piles!

 

[Pat]

Here's the Gunboards thread I referred to above:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?393513-German-Captured-Modified-Dutch-M-95-Long-Rifle

Note the use of a Dutch sling in the square cut modification to effect the side sling arrangement. It is still length-adjustable but the attachment point through the sling slot dish-out is fixed.

Pat