Mauser oberndorf 1916

[rickdiehl19]

Hi I have a 1916 gewehr 98 made by mauser oberndorf numbered 515 r. I was wondering roughly what time of year would this have been made as I can't find any production details for this maker. Correct me if I'm wrong that it was the 190,515th one made that year. Thanks in advance.
Rick

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[Loewe]

Generally, you need to subtract the j-block because most German factories did not use the j-block (Danzig did use j-block). Further, no L-block or Z-block has ever been recorded by Mauser, they could have been filled, but the possibility exists the L-z blocks were skipped also (not very likely, but the fact no 1898-1918 Mauser with this suffix has never been encountered in 20 years of research does suggest the possibility).

Leaving that aside, but excluding the j-block, would place your rifle as the 170,515th rifle serialed in 1916. Naturally there was a rejection rate and a failure rate, most rifles eventually made it through, but a certain number would have been scrapped.

As for when in 1916, this would be an imprecise guess based upon total serialed divided by 12 months, which is full of qualifications, - meaning an incalculable number of variables, thousands of individual actions or inaction's of the men and events involved, supply of material, labor and government intrusion.

Roughly June-July 1916 based upon 25,800 rifles made a month by serial extension. This calculation includes L-block and z-block, without those blocks the calculation would change, but still essentially mid-year.

*** Jon Speed's Mauser Archive states Mauser sold 332,703 G98's in 1916, this is higher than my calculation based upon observations, it would increase monthly production to 27,725 rifles a month and place your rifle earlier in June. As Jon Speed's totals are from period sales or production reports, it is probably more accurate, though it probably does not account for the lag in assembly and acceptance, - in other words some 1915's are in his total (and surely some 1916's feature in 1917 totals the following year, another incalculable that no one can account for, but in short, totals accepted and delivered a single year is different than how many are dated a single year - Jon Speed's official totals are based upon deliveries in 1916, observations are based upon 1916 dated rifles, which certainly lagged into 1917 totals)

Hi I have a 1916 gewehr 98 made by mauser oberndorf numbered 515 r. I was wondering roughly what time of year would this have been made as I can't find any production details for this maker. Correct me of I'm wrong that it was the 190,515th one made that year. Thanks in advance.
Rick

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[rickdiehl19]

Thanks for the great and thorough answer Loewe! I didn't realize so many were made in one year. Mine has the early stock with no finger grooves or through hole (matching). Were these used until they were gone or was randomly grabbed? I seen a 1694 n or r Mauser with the later stock. Thanks again for your time.

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[Loewe]

1694 n is a Turked rifle that has a postwar barrel on it, the stock is pretty devoid of markings to identify originality, but it is a pretty good bet it is a mismatcher.

Firms like Mauser (established makers with inventory - in a word prepared for wartime production demands) introduced features more systematically with apparently less of a chaotic introduction. They used walnut longer and more consistently (probably because they had more on hand) and introduced the features (take down & grips) more evenly. For Mauser this occurred in late 1916, well into the double suffix blocks.

Unfortunately, Mauser was caught up significantly in supplying Turkey starting in 1916-1917 and it consumed much of their production, which means 1917 production is more difficult to nail down with trends as Turked rifles tend to be poor examples to base observations around. They often come with matching stocks, but their owners tend to be rather indifferent to details (understandable for someone who collects rc's or Turks) and the ones that have some attentiveness to detail still face the fact most stocks are in poor condition and acceptance patterns are difficult to distinguish.

Try and post some pictures. I do not have your rifle recorded...

 

[rickdiehl19]

Thanks again Loewe! Here is mine...all matching except the small bolt parts, bolt body matches. No I did not paint it, rubbed chalk in the markings to take some pics and then cleaned it off. I like the fact the small bolt parts were replaced as it shows me honest use. Would this have been done when the 4 was marked on the butt stock?


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[rickdiehl19]

Any thing else you can tell me about it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Loewe]

It is common for the back end of the bolt to be mismatched, - it is also common for small components to be mismatched throughout a rifle that went through a depot. It is essentially a rule that two things were always serialed to match the receiver if replaced, the bolt body and the stock, no exceptions as far as I am concerned, though the methods can vary widely.

The Germans were typically frugal with replacing parts, they would use parts many times and some parts can have 3-4 serials on them, this is quickly noticed by even casual collectors on bolt bodies... their son's and grandson's in WWII didn't suffer from this lack of spare parts and re-using components is far less noticeable on 98k reworks (by comparison). It is probable that the Imperial era militaries did supply large numbers of ordnance spares to depots for such work, however little has survived, possibly because most of the German depots were not taken by American soldiers, only Coblenz was occupied at the end of the war and the US Army took much material from there. John Wall had a list the Army made of the loot, or perhaps it was Doss White, I have a copy somewhere.

The 4=Cologne (British occupied after the war), the methods of each depot or weapons collection center is not known, Storz does go into some details regarding methods, but it is very likely each was different and even within these centers things changed over time, new armorers, new commanders, things change over time. Late in the war when there was no shortage of rifles, it is possible they took more care as more time was available - starting in 1917 rifle production was exceeding demand, some firms were redirected away from rifles as stores of rifles piled up in depots.

BTW, the acceptance pattern is not clear with these pictures, can you confirm this Crown/H is under the cypher? Also, can you describe the letter under the crown at the wrist, typically it is a C/F, but hard to say with your pictures.

Thanks again Loewe! Here is mine...all matching except the small bolt parts, bolt body matches. No I did not paint it, rubbed chalk in the markings to take some pics and then cleaned it off. I like the fact the small bolt parts were replaced as it shows me honest use. Would this have been done when the 4 was marked on the butt stock?


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[rickdiehl19]

This I believe is the wrist mark you our talking about...not sure the letter unless I seen the script to compare it to.

The acceptance mark, not sure where you mean..but I took better pic of where I think. Let me know, thanks.

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[Loewe]

Yes, this is the wrist, typically a C/F though this one seems different. Usually the wrist is the most stable acceptance stamp, though with firms like Mauser they are more stable than the arsenals across the board. Mauser and DWM had fewer inspectors and there is less variation to acceptance. While this appears to be a different acceptance stamp than expected, the one under the cypher looks like a good match. Further this odd acceptance at the wrist is seen on another rifle in the q-block, so the variation is less worrisome. More recordings are needed to form a valid opinion, though I am sure the rifle-stock is good. It is just a variation that hasn't been seen very much.

Nice rifle, Mauser made a lot of rifles during the war, a huge number really, but they are fairly tough to find matching and not from Turkey. Further Mauser and DWM made better rifles imo, they with Amberg have the best rifles with the most consistency. Like most things, the government can always be relied upon to cost more and deliver a lessor product.. a timeless truth.

 

[rickdiehl19]

Great! you were worrying me for a bit, glad to hear you seen another that was made by Mauser. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. Very interesting.

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[mauser1908]

Really great looking rifle!

 

[rickdiehl19]

Thanks! Is there a way to tell the state this was issued to?

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[Loewe]

Prussian cypher= Prussia

Though it could have served in another army, especially if it went through a depot or similar circumstance. Really this isn't much of a question for most rifles, - Amberg serviced Bavaria; Simson and Dresden the Saxons, and Mauser Württemberg, though most (all wartime) Mauser rifles have Prussian cyphers. Bavaria was the only state with real autonomy, Saxony was under the thumb of Prussia since 1866, and their sheer existence was only due to Austria's insistence when peace was made (Saxony and Bavaria - and I think Würt also - fought with Austria against the Prussians in 1866; due to Saxony's significant military contribution to Austria during the war they were damn lucky to even exist afterward. Bavaria's contribution was far smaller and the peace less harsh, - but Bavarian's were always rather ornery & independent minded and there was little love between them & Prussia, even after WWI, Bavaria often went their own way where possible and often it seems primarily just to annoy the Prussians - this is especially true after WWI with the German central government, and Prussia in particular, taking a rather socialistic left-turn after the war.. the reason the EWB is so well known today is because the Bavarian's resisted its dissolution, the EW existed throughout Germany, as did numerous other militia and paramilitary formations, even some communist organizations; communism was always a powerful element in German politics in this period, and just as in Charlottesville, it is very difficult to draw a distinction between the two, primarily because there is ideologically little to separate a "nazi" from a "communist" (or cultural marxist), in all meaningful ways they are the same)

Lastly it should be pointed out that Württemberg cyphered rifles are very rare, mostly early Imperial rifles and some interwar "burned" antlers in stocks or stamped metal, which are probably organizational (paramilitary or militia) in nature, - not related to Mauser. It is highly probable Würt received their rifles from Prussia during the war. Saxony probably received many as well, - I doubt Simson and Dresden supplied all Saxony's needs. Storz would be a good place to look for more on this, though the book is a miserable chore reading or finding something. A terrible translation and no index makes it far less useful, - not to mention its near total reliance upon state archives, museums and Hermann Historica (he doesn't credit a single German collector! How ridiculous is that... luckily he "discovered" collectors in his subsequent books)