Questionable 1939 660

[nosbocaj]

1939 660

I came across this on Gunbroker. It immediately stood out to me, due mostly to the barrel (thanks to my new copy of Volume II).

1. Page 602 indicates the most common barrel codes used by Steyr as BO, SI, RG, and StG...no mention of RU. The barrel code also doesn't follow the barrel lot number, year, barrel code sequence.
2. Weimar eagle...again no mention in the book.
3. S/N's are off between the barrel and receiver, specifically the 1, 3, and 7.

660 Steyr:

Good Rifle:

Thoughts? Is this a legitimate rework?

 

[ugafx4]

Diligent work picking that out. The tough part about collecting 98ks is that there are always exceptions and cases that are different from all of the research you do.

This rifle was rebarreled by a depot with a spare barrel and renumbered to match. You're correct the fonts are off because they were done at two different places at two different times. Which depot did the rebarreling I'm not sure without looking at the books but RyanE or someone can probably tell by the font and firing proof. The 0,2 mark on the collar gives away that it is a rebarrel. There could be a depot stamp on the wood but it depends on how much the stock has been messed with if its possible to even still see it.

Keep up the study, you're on the right track.

 

[ugafx4]

A clarification for clarity: the 0,2 marking is for spare barrels that could have been used in a variety of ways. Repairs, new builds etc.

 

[DaveDavis]

Note the front sight cut for sight hood / IMHO, this is a legit period rework

 

[rockisle1903]

Legit depot rework....If you don’t know what you are looking at, maybe you should not bid.... Just saying. Definitely not a humped rifle... Rare code nonetheless

 

[nosbocaj]

Diligent work picking that out. The tough part about collecting 98ks is that there are always exceptions and cases that are different from all of the research you do.

This rifle was rebarreled by a depot with a spare barrel and renumbered to match. You're correct the fonts are off because they were done at two different places at two different times. Which depot did the rebarreling I'm not sure without looking at the books but RyanE or someone can probably tell by the font and firing proof. The 0,2 mark on the collar gives away that it is a rebarrel. There could be a depot stamp on the wood but it depends on how much the stock has been messed with if its possible to even still see it.

Keep up the study, you're on the right track.

So this is an interesting rifle with some real history...very cool!

I hadn't hit that chapter yet, but I just read up on it. I was afraid that there was an exception I was missing and I guess that's it.

Legit depot rework....If you don’t know what you are looking at, maybe you should not bid.... Just saying. Definitely not a humped rifle... Rare code nonetheless

I wasn't planning on bidding...just trying learn. This seems like an advanced collector's piece that will likely end up well past my price range considering the rare code and history. Thanks though!

 

[Warrior1354]

Indeed a legit Depot rework. These are actually really cool rifles to collect. As a k98k collector you can actually find them for really good prices at shows because a lot of folks don't know what they are. But they are a minefield if you don't know what you're looking at. Alot of people see them and avoid them because they don't know, hence why a lot of times that are sold for way under what they're worth.

I'm actually in the process of hoping to buy a nice Depot rework done by the Posen depot. I'm hoping me and my collector buddy can come to an agreement at the November ogca show.

And don't be too hard on yourself you're on the right track your studying, learning, and researching before you're buying that's a very smart move. Alot of people don't do that nowadays. My advice to you is get some experience under your belt in collecting the factory original rifles first before you collect these unique Depot rifles. Unless you come across one at a show that's really cheap. Sometimes that is is worth the Gamble, but if you can vent your purchase first before buying. The forum is always here to help others.

 

[nosbocaj]

Indeed a legit Depot rework. These are actually really cool rifles to collect. As a k98k collector you can actually find them for really good prices at shows because a lot of folks don't know what they are. But they are a minefield if you don't know what you're looking at. Alot of people see them and avoid them because they don't know, hence why a lot of times that are sold for way under what they're worth.

I'm actually in the process of hoping to buy a nice Depot rework done by the Posen depot. I'm hoping me and my collector buddy can come to an agreement at the November ogca show.

And don't be too hard on yourself you're on the right track your studying, learning, and researching before you're buying that's a very smart move. Alot of people don't do that nowadays. My advice to you is get some experience under your belt in collecting the factory original rifles first before you collect these unique Depot rifles. Unless you come across one at a show that's really cheap. Sometimes that is is worth the Gamble, but if you can vent your purchase first before buying. The forum is always here to help others.

It looks like a very cool rifle with a unique history. I ignored the description in the listing as so many on GB are useless or are full of misleading information. This one though is indicated to be a GECO depot rework, with a new barrel, stock, floorplate, and follower.

I've been slowly reading through Volume II, and of course the chapter on depot reworks is second to last!

I can see how people overlook them...it threw me for a total loop.

 

[runner]

This rifle would have been rebarrelled sometime after 1939, so why the Weimar firing proof, just a result of a depot still using old stamps?

 

[flynaked]

That may very well be or..

I may catch some flak for this theory, but here’s something I’ve been pondering. I’m starting to wonder if under certain circumstances, barrels were provisionally proofed before assembly. As far as I know, this is positively documented to not be the case when it comes to factory assembly. What about on ordnance spares though? Here’s another depot barrel with a small fire proof stamped randomly under the wood line.

This was already a practice long before the Mauser 98 ever came into being. Testing a barrel with a fixture plugging the breech was a way too ensure a smith didn’t complete a weapon, only to find out it had a bad barrel. Direct evidence of this is readily apparent when you study drillings and shotguns etc. Often the fire proofs would be physically impossible to stamp in their current locations, with the weapon assembled, as they are often half way obscured by the soldered ribs that hold the barrels together.

 

[mrfarb]

From what I’ve seen, the Weimar type firing proof was used by 2 of the depot facilities long after the introduction of the Nazi type firing proofs- Königsburg and I think Magdeburg. The Magdeburg one is more typical like you see on this 660 1939, the Königsburg looks more stylish for lack of a better term, just a bit different. Mostly I’ve seen the Magdeburg Weimar proofs on Gew98m rifles rebarreled in the Nazi era.bI have an example of one but I can’t find the photos.

As to fire proofing barrels before installation, I doubt it seriously. The chamber wasn’t cut to length as that was done after installation, and altering the chamber of a barrel would seem to trip the proof law requirement of needing to be pressure tested again, canceling out any existing proof? I’ve seen used barrels recycled and the existing pressure test proof was redone, I’m pretty sure when a new barrel is installed it requires proofing by law.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mowzerluvr]

Forgive my Steyr ignorance but folks keep saying 1939/660, my eyes see 1940/660 on the receiver bridge.

 

[heavy_mech]

Forgive my Steyr ignorance but folks keep saying 1939/660, my eyes see 1940/660 on the receiver bridge.

No issues. In the first post that's 2 different rifles. First one is the Gunbonker akshun item a 1939 and the 2nd one is the reference piece you see dated 1940.

 

[heavy_mech]

..This one though is indicated to be a GECO depot rework, with a new barrel, stock, floorplate, and follower.

Close but not really correct. 'GECO' supplied the barrel to the system as a spare. The e/26 acceptance is because the factory in Berlin was within that teams area of responsiblity. As mentioned his barrels show up in different scenarios from depot repairs to builds. This is a decent overview of the Gustav Genschow story.

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/gustav-genschow-co-geco/

 

[flynaked]

I assume the depot use of that proof is very likely the scenario then. What still confuses me is the roughly 2/3 scale, additional fire proof on the barrel I posted?

While it is a completely different geometry for headspacing, here is an example of a barrel assy proofed before assembly to a receiver. As you can see the proofs are nearly lost as the barrel is final ground to bring the double Kersten locks into detent within the receiver.

 

[heavy_mech]

..What still confuses me is the roughly 2/3 scale, additional fire proof on the barrel I posted?

I like the theory you proposed and the evidence. Totally makes sense to me that you wouldn't want to spend the time and finishing efforts on a barrel blank that wasn't up to snuff. I wonder if this was an early step that was later eliminated as a time/cost saving?

 

[flynaked]

Given that the Weimar proof continued on in depot use, a fact that I forgot, probably kills the theory in this case. But maybe the theory still warrants a look rhetorically, given the other barrel presented? When that particular rifle was posted, that detail was glossed over and still has me wondering.

Here’s a drilling with a proof obscured by one of the barrel assembly ribs. Sorry to get off track of the subject.

 

[mrfarb]

I assume the depot use of that proof is very likely the scenario then. What still confuses me is the roughly 2/3 scale, additional fire proof on the barrel I posted?

While it is a completely different geometry for headspacing, here is an example of a barrel assy proofed before assembly to a receiver. As you can see the proofs are nearly lost as the barrel is final ground to bring the double Kersten locks into detent within the receiver.

In this example, the breech and barrel have firing proofs, a drilling has a removable barrel so it’s proofed separate from the frame and had special proofing procedures. To that end, armorer P.38 barrels are proofed independent of slides (armorer slides are also proofed independently).

Read the 1939 proof law and you will see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[flynaked]

Thanks Mike, I’d love to read it.

 

[nosbocaj]

Close but not really correct. 'GECO' supplied the barrel to the system as a spare. The e/26 acceptance is because the factory in Berlin was within that teams area of responsiblity. As mentioned his barrels show up in different scenarios from depot repairs to builds. This is a decent overview of the Gustav Genschow story.

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/gustav-genschow-co-geco/

Good read, thanks for posting.

The listing is up around $2,200 with a few days left. With such a unique code and history, I wonder where this one will top out. Hopefully it ends up with somebody on here!