Third Party Press

Questionable Camos

Looks like contemporary art with special sauce to age it. A major pathology of the state of being waftarded is that the waftard judges originality and "wow, one looker" helmets by who owns them and/or who is selling them. If they saw the same helmet being mongered by a Latvian on epay, or a non-waftard, they would bash it.
 
Originally posted by fader107 View Post

I am a sucker for the unusual camo.
We ALL know that.

But you can not deny the fact that the term "unusual" is waaaay better than "controversial", hmm ?
Anyway, well done. I dunno the guy but whatever, I appreciate his former unusual LW.


There are apparently WAF bus loads of suckers for "unusual camos". Keep the buses rolling in and there will be piles of controversial unusual camos waiting to separate them from their hard-earned $$$.
 
I know I’ve mentioned this before, but as a kid I lived in Levittown NY, the first suburb, built in 1947 to alleviate the housing shortage for returning veterans, and I grew up surrounded by them. The amount of stuff those guys had was unbelievable. Helmets, pistols and rifles of every description, samurai swords, flags, daggers, shoeboxes full of German medals, you name it. And that was just on my block. One of my neighbors had a German general’s trousers with the red stripes running down the seam. Why he brought those back I have no idea. I began going to local gun shows in 1968, once again they were loaded with cool stuff.
In all that time I saw hundreds of German helmets, never saw a camo other than tan Afrika Korps, and one overpainted with a heavy woodchip texture. I never knew they existed until a savvy dealer friend told me about them in the early 1980s, and even then they were very rare.
Seeing how many are miraculously available today, I believe 98% of them to be fakes. If you look at the WAF helmets for sale there are more camos available than factory originals.

Something is very wrong.
 
point taken and made.. I could say the same thing about many things... I recall collecting g43's and how rare a real mount was. I remember holding my first and thinking it was the holly grail.. All these years later and with the web I now consider them fairly common and have had many hundreds pass through my hands one way or another... Same with alot of this stuff. M45 has posted many stinkers some very recently. The last isnt one of them.. These two hold a real grudge for WAF one way or another.. I get it some things posted their over the years are absurd. There have been scandals and scandals exposed.. Some created by them some not.. But, one mans opinion and mission can get blurred when vengeance sometimes blurs the vision. One this last one he's dead wrong.... This thread if it's done anything like many threads here on rifles ect. bring light into the room for good reason.
 
WAF has gotten a bum reputation over the years due in part to their arrogant claims that certain militaria (helmets) did not exist (they had never seen them). When they were repeatedly proven wrong, they got mad at the messengers and found excuses to ban them. Not holding any grudges, just saying what happened.

In line with what ottodog8 said, during 20th century collecting if you had told someone back then that you wanted a specific exotic camo in fantastic condition, maybe even named/unit marked, they would likely have said "Good Luck! If by some miracle you do find such a rare helmet, it will probably have unquestioned vet provenance." Rare helmets like that were not floating around. They had either been in vets hands since the war OR had been collected up decades ago and were locked away in established collections. When they did change hands, it was usually with a phone call - most of us never knew about it.

But now in the 21st century if you tell someone you want a specific exotic camo in fantastic condition maybe with name/unit marks, a dealer will tell you, "I've got my 'pickers' looking for them and will give you a call fairly soon when they "find" them." Forum members/friends will probably tell you, "A couple of my buddies each have that exact pattern! If they decide to sell, I'll call you. BTW:, do you really HAVE to have that 3 color Normandy hand painted with texture and ghosted wire ?? Have you thought about some other exotic camo patterns like, ghosted net, tiger stripe, disruptive, painted snow camo, red cross, SS dot pattern, copy of water pattern camo cover, desert turtle, snow turtle, ??? etc, etc....."

You read my critique on that last Normandy. You like it. Fine. Tell me why you think it's original and why you think I'm wrong.
 
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point taken and made.. I could say the same thing about many things... I recall collecting g43's and how rare a real mount was. I remember holding my first and thinking it was the holly grail.. All these years later and with the web I now consider them fairly common and have had many hundreds pass through my hands one way or another... Same with alot of this stuff. M45 has posted many stinkers some very recently. The last isnt one of them.. These two hold a real grudge for WAF one way or another.. I get it some things posted their over the years are absurd. There have been scandals and scandals exposed.. Some created by them some not.. But, one mans opinion and mission can get blurred when vengeance sometimes blurs the vision. One this last one he's dead wrong.... This thread if it's done anything like many threads here on rifles ect. bring light into the room for good reason.

WAF’s reputation for censorship and banning for those disagreeing or off the narrative is quite well known at this point. There’s a good bit of money and reputation involved. Certain people and narratives are advanced and protected. XRFacts was incubated and hatching at WAF, protected there, until we and USMF stood up for facts and reality. And of course, there’s the “Champagne Rune” the most notorious, biggest, and most long lived and pervasive fraud and hoax in militaria collecting in my lifetime. Being a toady has its benefits insofar as trinkets and sales are concerned.

What does it say about a site and forum when the first significant thread that outed the "Champagne Rune SS" "decal" as an airbrushed humpjob was locked and the guy who outed it eventually banned after he was attacked? Would that have happened here? Do you trust the information here and the integrity of the K98k collecting hobby more than German lid collecting and WAF? How would you compare the level of transparency and information integrity here compared to WAF? When the guy who goes to extreme time and expense proving that the "Champagne Rune SS decal" named by Hicks, featured in his books and COAs, is an airbrushed fraud, and must buy his own website to publish his work, what does that say? The German helmet collecting hobby has suffered accordingly. I think if you compare the health of the K98k collecting hobby and the German helmet collecting hobby we are doing far better because we do not do as WAF does. K98k collecting is filled with 20 and 30 somethings. Not so much with the German lids. Old dudes. There's a reason for that. These are all simply my humble opinions of course.
 

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BATTLE OF THE BULGE, MUSEUM & SHOW HOLIDAY

Regimental's trip to a museum. Notice many of the German camo museum helmets shown are questionable. I have noticed this same thing when visiting a war museum in Germany (Sinsheim)

What I understand of war museums is that many of the valuable, original pieces have long ago been sold off/stolen/traded by museum workers for worthless fakes. Something to keep in mind if ever considering donating items to a museum.
 
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What I understand of war museums is that many of the valuable, original pieces have long ago been sold off/stolen/traded by museum workers for worthless fakes. Something to keep in mind if ever considering donating items to a museum.

This. I know it happened. A "curator" who knows, who is a collector, plunders the back room and storage. Vets and their families were coming in bringing killer artifacts, such as camo M.38 paras and such. The curator takes it and replaces it with a fake. Same with daggers, swords, uniforms, everything. This happened with one of the major museums on a military base.
 
One of Ron R.'s camos on WAF (how many of these things does he have ?)

Someone actually called BS on this. He must be a new member and does not know the SOP (standard operating procedure).

Other members DO know the SOP and lined up behind this one as on queue. RARELY does anyone on WAF ever criticize one of Ron's helmets.
 

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How about a 3-color Normandy RAINBOW style ?
 

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M45, at this point I think camo helmet collecting is lost. They are way too easy to fake. I saw a Rex helmet recently and very few helmet collectors would figure out it was fake if it was offered on a big dealer's site. It was that good.
 
A type of helmet on the faker's radar as a prime acquisition. We have all seen these for sale at gun shows, those helmets that had their original exterior finish removed or heavily damaged during the postwar years, by vets or whomever, but the interiors and components are untouched. Fakers acquire these very cheaply and then work their magic on them, not just doubling or tripling their money, but often making a profit of 10X or more after turning them into exotic freshies.
 

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M45, at this point I think camo helmet collecting is lost.

Essentially yes, for the time being anyway. There will always be those very experienced long-time collectors who can still pull original camos out of the woodwork, but by and large I think collectors in general should avoid camos until technology can catch up with needs. By that I mean a device that can rapidly and cheaply do a non-destructive read on camo paint to determine its age. Once this becomes available on a large scale, the prices of questionable camos will fall through the floor and be more in line price-wise with what they actually are - postwar altered helmets, worth little more than the sum of its individual parts, more or less about 3-$400 instead of the 3-4K that they are currently pulling down.

Of course there will be a fair amount of squawking when questionable camo collectors finally realize they've been had, and there will be threads criticizing dealers and forums and such.

But much like the Sham-pain-SS ruins scandal, probably no one will actually be held accountable and be made to make restitution. It will all eventually blow over and become past history before the next scandal hits the hobby.
 
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Concerning fraud in the TR collecting hobby, the Hitler Diaries scandal of the 1980s in Germany has valuable lessons for collectors. There was a 5 part made-for-TV drama of this called Selling Hitler in 1991.


The drama illustrates how people can go ape-$h!t over Nah-zee items. It makes the Sham-pain-ruins and Questionable Camos scadals more understandable.
 
WAF 3 color camo. A very believable example. Well aged, but NOT well worn. Notice airvent photo shows paint chipped off, not worn off from use. No smooth dark rust patina as is normally seen on originals due to paint wearing off and corrosion forming slowly over time due to service wear. Bare metal shows rust pitting - a dead giveaway that what you are seeing is not what it seems.

Decal area seems to have been deliberately painted around. Supposedly there had been a decal there at one time that was camoed around. But the unpainted area seem to be too big for just a decal.

I give this one an A+ for movie prop use only.
 

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M45, at this point I think camo helmet collecting is lost.

Essentially yes, for the time being anyway. There will always be those very experienced long-time collectors who can still pull original camos out of the woodwork, but by and large I think collectors in general should avoid camos until technology can catch up with needs. By that I mean a device that can rapidly and cheaply do a non-destructive read on camo paint to determine its age. Once this becomes available on a large scale, the prices of questionable camos will fall through the floor and be more in line price-wise with what they actually are - postwar altered helmets, worth little more than the sum of its individual parts, more or less about 3-$400 instead of the 3-4K that they are currently pulling down.

Of course there will be a fair amount of squawking when questionable camo collectors finally realize they've been had, and there will be threads criticizing dealers and forums and such.

But much like the Sham-pain-SS ruins scandal, probably no one will actually be held accountable and be made to make restitution. It will all eventually blow over and become past history before the next scandal hits the hobby.
The technology is there and has been for quite some time but it's the cost factor that's never going to recede, so wishful thinking is all it well ever be.

$1500 plus to have the age of paint evaluated (here in Australia) and even then it's not exact science, more like probabilities.

Just educate one's self with the aging of paint and you'd be half way there and have an ally you trust who knows his stuff and you'd almost be there!
 
The technology is there and has been for quite some time but it's the cost factor that's never going to recede, so wishful thinking is all it well ever be.

$1500 plus to have the age of paint evaluated (here in Australia) and even then it's not exact science, more like probabilities.

Just educate one's self with the aging of paint and you'd be half way there and have an ally you trust who knows his stuff and you'd almost be there!
Technologies are commonly reduced in price over time and I would expect the same will be true for portable non-destructive paint testing.

Educating oneself with the aging of paint as the answer may well be a dead-end as the above questionable camo shows. That helmet shows excellent paint aging, and if that is all we go on as a determiner of authenticity, we must conclude it is original. Ageing paint can be replicated so well today. Just look at the movie prop industry. Remember the false premise used by the QC industry - if it APPEARS authentic it must BE authentic ?

I would say rather, we must educate ourselves with the way metal corrodes under various conditions/circumstances.
A period camo in service had paint scratched/chipped/worn off over time as the bare steel was corroding. That bare steel did not pit because the helmet was being handled constantly (in wartime service). The bare steel ages to a smooth, dark rust patina (no pitting).

A questionable camo, in contrast, had paint applied and then knocked off (hard breaks to paint common) in recent times by forgers/restorers who then set the camo outside in the elements to age the artwork. But the bare steel in this case pits. Why? The artwork is setting undisturbed in the elements. It is NOT being handled daily as original in service camos were. The result is prolific rust pitting (a big red flag).
 
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Item 906 M35 Snow camouflage helmet


This is an SE68 which originally left the factory as a double decal Luftwaffe helmet. The decals were removed at some point prior to the application of a brush-painted white coat during the December 1944 Ardennes offensive. We know this because the helmet was acquired in Europe from the son of the German veteran himself. ( I am sorry but no information regarding name or unit is able to be passed on). The helmet retains 85-90% of it’s white over-paint. The leather liner and strap show moderate wear but are completely intact and sound. The appearance of the white exterior is classic and in my opinion is a “one looker” original; making it a true rarity in a world where the majority of winter camouflage helmets are fake. I originally bought this helmet for my own collection and it graced my shelves for a while before being replaced by another. ON HOLD


Notice this helmet was photographed with less light than his other helmets typically are. So I am assuming that whoever bought this and looks at it in normal lighting will see something other than the "one looker original" that is advertised. I did not get the price on this one, but judging by other snow camos he has sold it could be somewhere between 5-7K.

I was getting my hopes up (I admit :) when he started prognosticating about the "Son of the German veteran himself"). I was certain that unquestioned vet provenance was only moments away.
But NO. "I am sorry but no information regarding name or unit is able to be passed on." DAMN !!!

After he butters us up with the "classic", "a one-looker original", and "a true rarity" malarkey he makes a stunning admission:

"in a world where the majority of winter camouflage helmets are fake"

Jeezus, KEN ! Do you know what you're saying ???

What about all the snow camos in this thread sold by yourself and your fellow dealers over the years ?? You're saying that the majority of those are FAKE ??
 

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Let's go back in time 9 years to the very first post of this thread. This snow camo was also sold by Ken. Notice the similarities.
7-25-13
Dark low-light background.
Near 100% coverage (Snow camos took a beating in combat, and being white in color it really showed)
Red rust (recent oxidation)
Looks like the same style of brushed on white paint
Both helmets are "original" based on Ken's opinion
No actual (unquestioned) vet provenance
 

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