Simson Suhl Research Study

[Loewe]

To further our understanding of the only firm allowed to manufacture small arms during the interwar period, I would like to request collectors post information on any Simson Suhl product they own.

Simson Suhl produced the Gewehr98 from 1915 through 1918, and they manufactured the Kar.98b from 1924 through 1931 (approximately). They also manufactured the P08 and were involved in machine gun repair and possibly limited production.
Simson Suhl was far more than a small arms firm; they were heavily involved in commercial products. They made automobiles, motorcycles, bicycles and even baby carriages (among many other things).

While the main purpose of this thread is to gather information on Simson made rifles (Gewehr98 or Kar.98b) I would also ask for any one who has a Gew.98M with Simson made barrel, Simson made P08, or Simson produced item share their item.

Any period catalog or brochure (post cards, advertisement etc..) would also be very welcome. Basically anything related to Simson Suhl up through the 1935 nationalization of the firm.

What is needed: the full serial number of the rifle, including suffix, an image of the right side of the receiver, the barrel code (usually under the wood line and consists a series of letters and numbers) and any stock markings. Further any markings that seem odd or out of place will help in the evaluations.

Information gathered eventually will be used to write a book, - pictures are used for data collection only and will not be used to illustrate a publication.

 

[Loewe]

Simson made or repaired rifles of the Weimar era carry acceptance patterns that will be very familiar to most Kar98k collectors. The only acceptance certain to be attributable to Simson Suhl is e/6 (eagle over “6”), however many other waffenamt style acceptance are attributed to them (e/33, e/43 especially).

Simson Suhl was a commercial company, and as such would have charged more to repair rifles than the Reichsheer run HZa depots. Consequently you do not see many Simson “repaired or re-barreled” Gewehr98’s.
Simson did hold the contract for major repairs of small arms, and you do run across Simson re-barrels and repaired rifles. What distinguishes a Simson ordnance spare barrel supplied to a depot from one installed at Simson Suhl?

This is a question asked often but I have never stated how I differentiate between the two, - I use the fireproof- Simson Suhl used a rather unique fireproof. This fireproof changed slightly over time but generally are similar and unique to Simson Suhl.

Here is my 1917/1920 Simson, which was re-barreled by Simson Suhl, probably in the late 1920’s by the BC and f/p style.

 

[Loewe]

Forgot the BC!

Assigned to a training unit

 

[vaughn99]

Hello Simson,

i think you said simson 1924 rifles are rare or was it 1925 or 26 any who LOL did your get the one off of GB for an observation if not i can post just trying to help were i can seller had been around for some time and a member of Gunboards so probably already have it.


later
vaughn

 

[Loewe]

V, Both 1924 and 1926 are incredibly scarce rifles, only a couple known of each. Serial range so far show 1926 the smallest production, but impossible to say with so few known. It is a certainty that less than 2500 1924’s were made, and less than 1700 1926 were made.

1925 is the most common “dated” Kar.98b but it is far scarcer than any Kar.98k.

I try to watch all the auction sites but it is possible I missed it? Have a link or a serial?

Hello Simson,

i think you said simson 1924 rifles are rare or was it 1925 or 26 any who LOL did your get the one off of GB for an observation if not i can post just trying to help were i can seller had been around for some time and a member of Gunboards so probably already have it.


later
vaughn

 

[vaughn99]

the reason you missed it was my missinformation it was a 1925 simson serial 8957 sorry about that.


later
vaughn

 

[Loewe]

Yes, I have that one. RickB is fairly good at sending me good pics of his sale rifles.

He is a righteous seller and very honest. I think his handle is Swedeguy or something like that? One of the good sellers!

the reason you missed it was my missinformation it was a 1925 simson serial 8957 sorry about that.


later
vaughn

 

[3371940]

Yes, I have that one. RickB is fairly good at sending me good pics of his sale rifles.

He is a righteous seller and very honest. I think his handle is Swedeguy or something like that? One of the good sellers!

I think that you are correct. Good seller. Good pics as well so you know what you are getting.

 

[solman]

here's some pics of that gew98(m) i got. sure enough a bumble bee 6 on the wrist...
Now before you give me the chop... its AS RECEVED... i haven't taken it apart, as some a$$ tried before me and just totally dogged the screws. there isn't enough material to get any grip. i ground a larger screw driver to fit. just a no go. i was thinkin of taken a jewlers file to the slot but man. maybe when i retire. l will leave it to the next generation to figure out... the S/42K is on the 'wrong' side, there are several different numbers all over it. no slot for the cleaning rod. and..... stone mint bore. I just love putting on that quill-back bayou and going to the range.... couldn't tell ya the barrel code. some p74 in a box on the rear sight.
sorry on the barrel code man. but this and that dou45 are the reason i did the franken mausers.
like every outing,,,a tiny nick here, a tiny ding there.. hey i got to shoot it anyway. i still take it out now and then.

 

[Loewe]

I understand, - I don’t blame you as that would be a hassle!

Thanks for trying and the good pics!

 

[solman]

thanks man. what is the significance of the waA6 on the wrist?

 

[Loewe]

I did not notice an e/6?

Can you take a good clear picture?

thanks man. what is the significance of the waA6 on the wrist?

 

[Nabs]

I think you have already seen my rear sight on my Gewehr 98m, not sure if you want to see it again hehe.

It has a Weimar eagle with "6" underneath as well as a large "S" stamped on the bottom left of the rear sight leaf base. If I remember our discussion on my 98m three or four months ago, we came to the conclusion that my 98m was reworked by Simson Suhl in the mid 1920s.

 

[Loewe]

I do not remember the rifle, I see a lot of rifles in a week between my website and "poaching" on various sites...

Simson did not rework a lot of rifles imo, though they did on occasion. (obviously I am talking surviving rifles, most are gone and we do not know numbers preformed. It is fairly hard to find a Simson rework imo, and many that are around have chopped barrels from Spanish import hack jobs- they seem to have a fondness to hack up Simson barrels.)

I think you have already seen my rear sight on my Gewehr 98m, not sure if you want to see it again hehe.

It has a Weimar eagle with "6" underneath as well as a large "S" stamped on the bottom left of the rear sight leaf base. If I remember our discussion on my 98m three or four months ago, we came to the conclusion that my 98m was reworked by Simson Suhl in the mid 1920s.

 

[Nabs]

Alright, I will take some updated pictures for you tomorrow.

From what I remember, the barrel is an Erma 1939 replacement. The rear band has "SU 50" stamped on. Both the front and rear band have the full serial number stamped on them.

The stock has been sanded and the recoil lug and bolt take down disc cold blued at one point after sanding. The stock is walnut and is the original matching Imperial one to the rifle. Under the pistol grip is an Imperial acceptance mark followed by an Eagle with swastika and "SU **" (I cannot make out the number).

The butt plate appears to have been blued at one point. It has the full serial number stamped on it but no Imperial or Weimar acceptance marks anywhere. The bluing has mostly faded away, being replaced by a layer of patina (as present on all exterior metal surfaces).

The receiver has been blued and shows Weimar marks on the right side of the receiver (numbers 3 and 8 along with a stylied "J"), some of them being stamped in-between the Imperial acceptance marks. There is also a c/ RC present.

The rear sight is a tangant one, unblued, 100m-2000m graduation in 100m increments. It has the full serial number stamped underneath along with Imperial acceptance stamps. There is a "s.S" stamp along with a "c/6" and large "S" and the last two digits of the serial stamped just above located on the rear sight leaf sleeve. The rear sight sleeve has a c/29 stamped on the right side, muzzle forward.

Trigger guard appears to be the original Imperial one with full serial stamped on it. The floor plate does not match but the bluing matches the receiver. Same for the follower which is the post war style that requires you to depress it in order to cycle the action when there are no rounds present. The follower and floor plate match and both have Imperial acceptance stamps on them.

Perhaps the most unusual feature is that, at one point, she was modified to take a turned down bolt. There is a recess cut into the stock to accommodate the turned down bolt and handle. The bolt is Third Reich stamped (eagle with swastika present on the bolt handle) but all of the parts show subcontractor marks (bolt sleeve is stamped "ghn" and the safety is stamped "m"). There is a serial number present and every part matches except for the cocking piece (blued with two digits stamped on a crown over a stylized letter I cannot make out) and the firing pin. There are no WaA present anywhere on the bolt. The firing pin is the original unblued Imperial one but is a forced matched to another Imperial rifle. The underside of the bolt handle has a "1" stamped on it. Someone on gunboards mentioned it looks like a late WW2 bolt. It is quite interesting that I haven't seen another 98m modified in such a manner.

Her parade hook is still present and no modification was done to her to mount a sling on the side. I currently have an Imperial style sling on her right now.

 

[Loewe]

Well, a 1939 ERMA barrel would be problematic for a Simson rework- Simson was nationalized in late 1935 by the nazis. BSW was used 1933-1939 give or take a few months.

Sounds more like a HZa Spandau rework that subsequently received a nazi era barrel. Though HZa Spandau operated well into 1944.

The e/6 parts could be simply Simson provided parts. Like many firms Simson provided parts to the ordnance system. Hard to say without looking at the rifle but sounds like an earlier reworks cycled through in the nazi era.

Alright, I will take some updated pictures for you tomorrow.

From what I remember, the barrel is an Erma 1939 replacement. The rear band has "SU 50" stamped on. Both the front and rear band have the full serial number stamped on them.

The stock has been sanded and the recoil lug and bolt take down disc cold blued at one point after sanding. The stock is walnut and is the original matching Imperial one to the rifle. Under the pistol grip is an Imperial acceptance mark followed by an Eagle with swastika and "SU **" (I cannot make out the number).

The butt plate appears to have been blued at one point. It has the full serial number stamped on it but no Imperial or Weimar acceptance marks anywhere. The bluing has mostly faded away, being replaced by a layer of patina (as present on all exterior metal surfaces).

The receiver has been blued and shows Weimar marks on the right side of the receiver (numbers 3 and 8 along with a stylied "J"), some of them being stamped in-between the Imperial acceptance marks. There is also a c/ RC present.

The rear sight is a tangant one, unblued, 100m-2000m graduation in 100m increments. It has the full serial number stamped underneath along with Imperial acceptance stamps. There is a "s.S" stamp along with a "c/6" and large "S" and the last two digits of the serial stamped just above located on the rear sight leaf sleeve. The rear sight sleeve has a c/29 stamped on the right side, muzzle forward.

Trigger guard appears to be the original Imperial one with full serial stamped on it. The floor plate does not match but the bluing matches the receiver. Same for the follower which is the post war style that requires you to depress it in order to cycle the action when there are no rounds present. The follower and floor plate match and both have Imperial acceptance stamps on them.

Perhaps the most unusual feature is that, at one point, she was modified to take a turned down bolt. There is a recess cut into the stock to accommodate the turned down bolt and handle. The bolt is Third Reich stamped (eagle with swastika present on the bolt handle) but all of the parts show subcontractor marks (bolt sleeve is stamped "ghn". There are no WaA present anywhere on the bolt. The firing pin is the original unblued Imperial one but is a forced matched to another Imperial rifle.

Her parade hook is still present and no modification was done to her to mount a sling on the side. I currently have an Imperial style sling on her right now.

 

[Nabs]

Alright, thats what I remember from our discussion when I first posted the rifle up on gunboards. I just want to clear up any misconceptions I have about the reworks the rifle had and where the reworks took place as I was absorbing alot of information over multiple posts.

What exactly is HZa Spandau ? Is this the former Spandau arsenal located in Berlin that is Weimar Era or Third Reich ? Is HZa Spandau linked to the "SU 50" stamp and eagle with swastika on my pistol grip ? Is it possible my rifle was not touched during the Weimar republic era but re-worked once during the early 1930s, having many of the original parts replaced to Kar98b specifications ? This may also explain the Weimar style eagle inspector stamps on the rear sight sleeve. The Erma barrel stamp is "EE" in a circle, followed by a large 53, slash smaller 39 and three WaAs. What exactly does this Erma barrel stamp mean ? Is the "EE" in a circle Erma's stamp ? Does the 53 represent the lot number and 39 the year of manufacture ? Could the replaced barrel be linked to the eagle and swastika with SU stamped on the pistol grip and possibly HZa Spandau ?

 

[Loewe]

I understand, - HZa Spandau was part of the previous arsenal, but the arsenal was used to create several facilities, many of a commercial nature. It basically took the place of the facilities there (in Imperial era Spandau was the focal point of everything related to small arms development- so to was it during the interwar period.)

Yes it is the mfg of the parts marked "Suxx" sometimes over a date. They were more than a regular depot imo, the also made parts.

Hard to say, depends how the parts are marked. Your rifle could have gone through a number of reworks, and only the last one was in the post 1939 period (parts dating, whether MO rear sight sleeves or barrels only tell you when that parts was made- not when it was done.. obviously if made in 1939 that is the earliest it could have been used but it could have been used much later. Other things can date work though.)

Anyway, lots of maybes, if's, and possibles here as reworks are often hard to judge as they were done by many facilities, at different times and by different armorers/personnel.. lots of variables and that is why humpers use this theme to hump rifles (saying its reworked rather than m/m), it is also one of the reasons reworks are devalued to original.

Alright, thats what I remember from our discussion when I first posted the rifle up on gunboards. I just want to clear up any misconceptions I have about the reworks the rifle had and where the reworks took place as I was absorbing alot of information over multiple posts.

What exactly is HZa Spandau ? Is this the former Spandau arsenal located in Berlin that is Weimar Era or Third Reich ? Is HZa Spandau linked to the "SU 50" stamp and eagle with swastika on my pistol grip ? Is it possible my rifle was not touched during the Weimar republic era but re-worked once during the early 1930s, having many of the original parts replaced to Kar98b specifications ? This may also explain the Weimar style eagle inspector stamps on the rear sight sleeve. The Erma barrel stamp is "EE" in a circle, followed by a large 53, slash smaller 39 and three WaAs. What exactly does this Erma barrel stamp mean ? Is the "EE" in a circle Erma's stamp ? Does the 53 represent the lot number and 39 the year of manufacture ? Could the replaced barrel be linked to the eagle and swastika with SU stamped on the pistol grip and possibly HZa Spandau ?

 

[Nabs]

My camera ran out of power when I was in the middle of taking photos so I will have to continue later when it is charged up again.

The "SU" number with e/swastika on the pistol grips looks like either SU 10 or SU 19 (more like 19). Does this make sense with any Third Reich depots ?

 

[Nabs]

I noticed something interesting when I was look at the serial numbers on my 98m. Apparently, there is a distinct font difference on two of the numbers that is noticable between the 1939 barrel serial and the receiver. When compared to the other parts, the font on the front and rear band match the receiver. The rear band is most certainly a Weimar era replacement but the front band is a little bit different. The serial number is 9345 and the "93" are not in line with the "45" (the numbers are stamped tightly together and right in the middle of the band) where there is a larger space between the "93" and these numbers are not inline or on the same level as the the "45". I think the front band is the original Imperial one that was possibly re-blued during the Weimar era and stamped with the first two digits of the serial number.

The serial number font on the butt plate matches the receiver.

Interestingly, the serial number font on the trigger guard assembly matches the barrel.

When compared to the Weimar marks stamped in between the Imperial acceptance marks, the font of the "3" matches the Imperial receiver serial "3" font. This leads me to think that you are right in that this rifle was re-worked more than once. It certainly looks like this rifle was re-worked at least once during the reign of the Weimar Republic and once again by the Third Reich.

I will take some close up photos of the parts in question and I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.