SS Gew Conversion Barrel Shank markings discussion

[mrfarb]

Note- this thread broken out from the "Lets Talk SS Deaths Heads" thread here: https://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?35803-Lets-talk-SS-Deaths-Heads

It makes sense that a lot of SSR rifles have the "SS2" SS-Waffenwerkstatt Dachau inspection, nearly all of the rifles in inventory were sent there for reworking to bent bolt/band spring configuration. Some have TS stamped on the shank as well, or a small SS2 skull. To me all of these barrel shank markings are probably clues to who did the original conversion to K98k length - I've yet to see any markings on an SSR that carries over to all of them. As time goes on I'm more convinced the majority of the conversions were done by commercial firms for the SS- I say majority because as with anything reworked there is no set boundaries. More likely you have "typical" and "atypical" as some depots could have installed K98k replacement barrels without marking them. A common misconception to me is that people think the skulls are some kind of property mark, they are depot marks or depot inspections much like in the Army system.

 

[RyanE]

That is a whole 'nother can of worms there. I see the TS, Star, FS and HW on purpose made short barrels, and have seen the SS2 on shortened barrels (but also unshortened). I really don't know, but if I had one with a shortened Gew bbl I would expect it to have an SS2 or one of the others.

TS = Thieme & Schlegelmilch, Suhl?
FS = Friedrich Stendebach, Suhl?
Star = ???
HW = Hermann Weihrauch

It might be an interesting project to compare fonts of the "St.m.G" on the SS rifles with other 1930s commercial rifles from these companies.

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[mrfarb]

Lets talk SS Deaths Heads

But, the St.m.G. Markings are from the proof house which all probably used. Interesting list of places, someone should start working on that.

 

[RyanE]

But, the St.m.G. Markings are from the proof house which all probably used.

Sure, that's my point. If the fonts match up, it would add support to these being done by firms around Suhl who used the local proof house.

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[Absolut]

TS = Thieme & Schlegelmilch, Suhl?
FS = Friedrich Stendebach, Suhl?
Star = ???
HW = Hermann Weihrauch

It might be an interesting project to compare fonts of the "St.m.G" on the SS rifles with other 1930s commercial rifles from these companies.

To name a few more:

• (C. G.) Haenel
• Greifelt & Co
• Schmidt & Habermann
• Carl Walther
• Gebrüder Merkel
• Fritz Langenhan
• J. G. Anschütz
• Gebrüder Rempt ("Remo Gewehrfabrik")
• Venuswaffenwerk Oskar Will

Nearly all of the above are listed to have supplied parts for the K98k rifles, some are even listed to have force labor.

Edit: typo.

 

[flynaked]

Sure, that's my point. If the fonts match up, it would add support to these being done by firms around Suhl who used the local proof house.

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It’s very likely but not necessarily true, firms from all over sent weapons to Suhl for proofing. Case in point, firms from Austria sent weapons to Suhl after Vienna and Ferlach were apparently shut down? I haven’t seen any wartime Austrian fire proofing personally, maybe someone else has, they all seem to go to Suhl. Additionally, almost every conversion presented in these last two threads has been done at the Z-M proof house, not Suhl.

I like your list of attributions, I think you are onto something. The star I think must be something else though, since it shows up on rifles in addition to the HW on occasion.

 

[RyanE]

It’s very likely but not necessarily true, firms from all over sent weapons to Suhl for proofing. Case in point, firms from Austria sent weapons to Suhl after Vienna and Ferlach were apparently shut down? I haven’t seen any wartime Austrian fire proofing personally, maybe someone else has, they all seem to go to Suhl.

The 3.45 dated 8mm Carcanos were done by Ferlach. They are controversial, but Wolfgang Riepe, who wrote the very good German language reference on Carcanos, wrote to Ferlach who still had the records of the 224 they proofed in March. I don't see any reason not to believe Riepe. So I don't think Ferlach ever shut down.

I think I have a photo of one at home I can attach later.

Additionally, almost every conversion presented in these last two threads has been done at the Z-M proof house, not Suhl.

Forgive my ignorance, but how can you tell? Are the C/N stamps used distinct, or is it just the lot number stamped on these? I don't see a proof house mark.

I like your list of attributions, I think you are onto something. The star I think must be something else though, since it shows up on rifles in addition to the HW on occasion.

Maybe HW was the star? Or maybe its Venus. It is a very bright star in the night sky after all...

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[flynaked]

I’m curious to see that flavor of Carcano as it isn’t something I’m familiar with, I’ve only seen the KH examples. Off the bat, the fact that they are 3.45 dated is odd because Austrian convention dated them differently so I’d like to see what that looks like. Is the conversion firm known for those examples, someone in Ferlach?


You got it on the Z-M correlation, they feature a ledger number which was used at Z-M but not in Suhl.


No clue on the last one, only guesses based on what’s seen. I’ve been waiting to see if an example would be posted but that wasn’t the case so here you go. This is not my rifle to share but here’s a close up of what I am referring to.

 

[RyanE]

I’m curious to see that flavor of Carcano as it isn’t something I’m familiar with, I’ve only seen the KH examples. Off the bat, the fact that they are 3.45 dated is odd because Austrian convention dated them differently so I’d like to see what that looks like. Is the conversion firm known for those examples, someone in Ferlach?

Might be taking this thread a bit off track here, but I've attached the only good pics I have of the variation. One is an M41 the other a Carbine. Also attached the email from Riepe on these. I am afraid I made a mistake though, since Ferlach reported 225 not 224. Also the date is 345 not 3.45. Mea culpa.

These were probably (?) not converted by HK. These are repeaters designed to use some form of modified Italian clip (?) with a relief notch cut into the receiver for the 8mm cartridge. HK rifles were mostly single shots, however they did convert some with a Mauser style box magazine. Never seen one though.

I need to do a write up on the 8mm Carcanos at some point...

 

[flynaked]

This is very interesting, the first I’ve seen or heard of an Austrian proof house acting as a German entity and obviously confirmed. It seems very odd indeed, but now I have a new research project! To date, every wartime Austrian gun I’ve seen has simply gone to Suhl. I am not familiar with any of the Italian markings that are referred to, but for it being a newly installed barrel I find the presence of an Instandsetzung proof odd, thanks for sharing all this!

 

[RyanE]

This is very interesting, the first I’ve seen or heard of an Austrian proof house acting as a German entity and obviously confirmed. It seems very odd indeed, but now I have a new research project! To date, every wartime Austrian gun I’ve seen has simply gone to Suhl. I am not familiar with any of the Italian markings that are referred to, but for it being a newly installed barrel I find the presence of an Instandsetzung proof odd, thanks for sharing all this!

These are not new barrels, the Germans simply bored out the original 6.5mm barrels to 8mm. By the way, later in his email Wolfgang states that there were no German (presumably he means government or military?) proof officers at Ferlach at the time, only a civilian proof officer "as it is now".

 

[flynaked]

Very interesting information, thanks Ryan. I misread his part in the email about new barrels, an existing barrel having been rebored of course makes perfect sense for a J proof.

I didn’t mean to get off track either. But going back to the SS conversions, I haven’t seen all too many examples of the “TS” marking, but sometimes when I see it, it almost looks like it could possibly be an intertwined “PS” instead (like a broken punch or something on the top right edge) but then the serif on the S throws me off. What do you guys think, solidly TS?

 

[Hercules]

Here is my SS Conversion. It has both a Star and HW on barrel shoulder. Each marking probably has a different significance.

https://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?33207-SS-Conversion-Serial-13333&highlight=Conversion

 

[Hercules]

My SS Short Side Rail Sniper does not have anything on barrel shoulder.

https://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?27792-SS-Conversion-Short-Side-Rail

 

[mrfarb]

Lets talk SS Deaths Heads

I think it’s clearly TS, looks like maybe the T could be imitating a hammer?

As to Brian’s SSR lacking any marking, it also has a depot spare barrel and was done later.

You have to separate later SS gew conversions from the early ones. I’ve never trended barrel collar vs skull type vs proofing dates - I’ll do some general comparison stuff this weekend and report back.

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[flynaked]

Do you have any clearer pictures of the shank of this rifle from post #2 Mike?

One thing I am wondering and haven’t been able to fully correlate as I don’t have SS conversions filed or anything, but for those of you that do; does the star show up on any barrels that are NOT the original converted imperial barrel?

 

[mrfarb]

Lets talk SS Deaths Heads

I might, I will check tomorrow.

As I said, I’ve never trended the shoulder markings but will go through a bunch this weekend.

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[mrfarb]

Lets talk SS Deaths Heads

Ok, as I started looking through things I realized I actually have done this before a long time ago, probably for Volume 1 when I did the SS Gew chapter, and remembered why I didn't include it in the book - information is sparse and people don't share complete photo spreads to make any meaningful trending. But, I have since captured many more examples to throw at this and came to a conclusion - I still don't have enough information to make any determination. We can theorize and guess, and its not a wasted effort to do so, but the application of the barrel shoulder markings are inconsistent at best. A few things I noted about the barrel collar markings:

1- the majority i looked at are unmarked completely, like 80% plus
2- if a barrel is from the depot system (meaning a K98k barrel) it's not usually marked on the collar other than normal 7,9 and 0,2 , and depot spare replacements date as early as 1938 (commercial proofing date, not barrel manufacture date)
3- the "Star" marking is most prevalent it seems and mostly post 1938/1939 but I did see on the earliest 36 conversion rifle, and can show up with other shoulder markings
4- TS seems to be on "Skull M" marked examples - not concrete as I only have a few examples
5- "small SS2" seems to be on shortened Gew.98 barrels without commercial proofing - I have an example of an "SS2" shoulder marked Gew.98 length barrel but didn't find that photo, I do have it though

Its the age old problem with depot guns, if you look at the majority of them they have been reworked multiple times over a 8 year span of use and its impossible to attach one marking to a specific time. One thing I am leaning towards, the shoulder marking has something to do with the shortening process which I already believed. The fact that you don't see any of these markings on depot type spare barrels is a good data point. So perhaps the SS doled out the shortening of the barrels instead of the complete conversion - think about what would really be involved in the conversion, the barrel work would be the hardest part. I need to think about that angle for a while.

No better photos of the one you asked about Clay, Bruce took those photos and didn't take a specific photo of that marking.

I'm going to break this barrel shoulder marking stuff into a separate thread and add it to the sticky, its interesting and potentially fruitful and it needs its own thread for future trends.

 

[Hercules]

Here is the TS mark from another of mine.

 

[flynaked]

Thanks for digging Mike, these collar markings are just getting super interesting.

Thanks Brian, this shows how tipped the die was in the previous example above, yours is much better to read. It’s very interesting how the “1” in the bore gauging appears to have been stamped over the marking.