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Steel defect or stamp?

Aeisir

Moderator
Looking a little closer at pix I posted yesterday, an interesting steel defect popped out of the photo. The right side looks like a well-formed eagle wing. The barrel was milled over this thing whatever it is leading me to opine that the blank wasn't perfect. Anyhow, I would be happy to hear opinions.

(postscript: James K and another forum member have the right answer -- this is a bad strike by a worn die. I rubbed away some dust and crud to see if there was more definition, but that didn't help much. Thanks to both for comments.)

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I will defer to those more expert, but it looks to me like the barrel proof; it and the WaA stamp would have been put on when the barrel was proved as a barrel before being installed on a rifle. The serial number, put on after barrel installation to match the receiver number, is stamped over the WaffenAmt mark.

Jim
 
Eagle = proof mark.

E/WaA with number = inspection mark, with the inspection occurring immediately after assembly or after manufacture of the individual componant.

Proofing and inspections were different processes.
 
for a while it seemed no-one was going to jump on the error but you did and 126 other views seem to have missed it - congrats
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Eagle = proof mark.

E/WaA with number = inspection mark, with the inspection occurring immediately after assembly or after manufacture of the individual componant.

Proofing and inspections were different processes.
 
As I said, I will defer to the experts, but barrels were definitely proved and marked with the eagle barrel proof and the WaA acceptance (not "inspected" - inspected AND accepted) as barrels, before assembly. (Barrel proof was done in a fixture, not a receiver, with a heavy metal cover. Proving the barrel before assembly was done so that if the barrel did fail proof, it would not destroy the receiver, stock and other parts as well.) Assemblers were well aware of that and would not install a barrel that did not have the barrel proof and the proper acceptance stamps. The eagle stamp indicating the completed rifle passed its firing proof is on the receiver, not on the barrel.

Jim
 
James - its a bit of a yes and no situation - i have references on german proofing laws and procedures, probably same ones you have read but lets look clearer at what they say - they usually discuss 'commerial proofing' in detail and the military proofing process is often left not entirely clear - for obvious reasons military proofing processes may not necessarily be the same nor do they need to be the same

also, what you have cited is how commercial provisional proof is done - note :provisional, not final proof

to further our combined general knowledge i would like to see any docs that establish the process for commercial provisional proofing was always strictly applied as part of military proofing, until then it seems unlikely moreso if mass production was the goal - until then we need to be cautious about attempting to make any definitive findings

have you got any relevant docs?

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As I said, I will defer to the experts, but barrels were definitely proved and marked with the eagle barrel proof and the WaA acceptance (not "inspected" - inspected AND accepted) as barrels, before assembly. (Barrel proof was done in a fixture, not a receiver, with a heavy metal cover. Proving the barrel before assembly was done so that if the barrel did fail proof, it would not destroy the receiver, stock and other parts as well.) Assemblers were well aware of that and would not install a barrel that did not have the barrel proof and the proper acceptance stamps. The eagle stamp indicating the completed rifle passed its firing proof is on the receiver, not on the barrel.

Jim
 
I don't know of any documents on a direct connection between commercial proof procedures and military proof procedures because AFAIK there was none.

Obviously, both systems had the same goal, to ensure that firearms in the hands of the users were safe, but I know of no direct comparisons between the two systems. Further, the commercial proof systems in countries like England and Germany were established by public law and the standards published as public documents, where the military system was established by military regulations which were rarely made public or widely published. (And sometimes are misunderstood when they are!)

It is sometimes said that military proof testing was not done, or was done only on samples due to the need for high production. That might have been true in 1945 when many standards slipped, but it was certainly not true earlier, even though some inspection steps were eliminated sooner. Besides, for obvious reasons, no government wants to issue possibly defective guns to its troops. (We might recall the serious morale problem among Canadian troops when a design defect in the Ross rifle resulted in some accidents.)

Yes, the German barrel proof was similar to the provisional proof or temporary proof in that the idea was to weed out any defective barrels before they were assembled into a gun. The U.S. did exactly the same thing, with a "P" stamp on the barrel (of, say, an M1 rifle) indicating the barrel proof while the circled "P" on the stock indicated that the gun had passed its final definitive proof. I had a picture someplace of the barrel proof setup for the .45 caliber M1911A1 pistol barrel; I can't find it right now, but it is a fixture with a lever inside what looks like a barbeque grill with a heavy metal cover. The barrel was clamped into the fixture, the proof load put in the chamber, the lever turned down to close the toggle "breech", the cover closed, and the "gun" fired. Failures were, I understand, rare but they did happen, and would have destroyed an expensive pistol if the barrel proof had not been done. BTW, back to Germany, the Luger and P.38 pistols were also subject to barrel proof.

An element of confusion with German barrel proofs is that usually the same size and type of eagle was used as was used for the final proof mark on the receiver. That is understandable because there were certain specified sizes and the stamps were issued by (in this period) the WaA. So it looks like an inspector stamped the receiver and the barrel at the same time, when in fact the barrel had been proved and stamped in the barrel shop before even being assembled to the receiver. Sometimes we do see clearly different stamps, and collectors who believe that both were made at the same time by the same person don't understand how that could happen.

Jim
 
yea thats a proof mark. ive seen a couple of rapair marks, on one it was a 'KRU' mark on the front band, where they ground off the sling attach hook.
the other was on the rear bridge, and it was a waA mark. i have the pic somewhere on my puter. ill try and look.
 

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