"What you can get for 960 bucks" : Steyr 1941 (PLEASE HELP WITH ODDITIES)

[Jsne]

Thanks for the great pictures, I am surprised there are so many Steyr components (e/623) on the rifle, though we do not have many rifles recorded that have many original parts. Most of what we know about the variation is based upon JimP rifle, many of the others are rc's or heavily mismatched rifles, basically only barreled receivers with a part or two matching.

Your stock is a Menzel stock ("c" stock), typical of armorer spares and the G.29/40 program, the only other important thing that you could post is the barrel code, it would roughly date the rifle by the range of the barrel. While not perfect, usually I can date the barrel to a typical range of normal SDP production, though in this case, it being a depot build, it is less accurate but it might give us an idea of when the barrel was made at least. (the latest known barrel is a 1941 dated barrel, typical of the bnz/42 "f" block, a pretty high lot number, most are 1940 dated barrels)

The biggest question about these is when they were assembled, one can assume late 1941-1942 as the most likely range by known barrel codes and what we know of the "rifle shortage" expediencies that were part of the larger rationalization effort that occurred in German industry between May and December 1941.

Hi Loewe

I will take the riffel apart and post Picture of any barrelcode I can find.

JSNE

 

[Jsne]

Thanks for the great pictures, I am surprised there are so many Steyr components (e/623) on the rifle, though we do not have many rifles recorded that have many original parts. Most of what we know about the variation is based upon JimP rifle, many of the others are rc's or heavily mismatched rifles, basically only barreled receivers with a part or two matching.

Your stock is a Menzel stock ("c" stock), typical of armorer spares and the G.29/40 program, the only other important thing that you could post is the barrel code, it would roughly date the rifle by the range of the barrel. While not perfect, usually I can date the barrel to a typical range of normal SDP production, though in this case, it being a depot build, it is less accurate but it might give us an idea of when the barrel was made at least. (the latest known barrel is a 1941 dated barrel, typical of the bnz/42 "f" block, a pretty high lot number, most are 1940 dated barrels)

The biggest question about these is when they were assembled, one can assume late 1941-1942 as the most likely range by known barrel codes and what we know of the "rifle shortage" expediencies that were part of the larger rationalization effort that occurred in German industry between May and December 1941.

Here are Pictures of all the marks not seen before dissassembly, please, if you know what they mean, tell me :-D Thanks all for all the great info! Any new on this one?
/JSNE

 

[mauser99]

K.M. depot rifle..

Another one of these rifles have surfaced. When looking at it I thought it the rifle posted here as I remembered looking at these photos and it looked like the same one.. I Now know its not. As this one is in Denmark.
The example I found it built up on a 660 coded 29/40 rec. And has a 40 dated barrel. Photos will follow @ some point.. The numbering method is the same. With dot coded wood.

 

[Guntoter]

The stock appears to have been sanded and refinished, which may account for the very weak Eagles on the stock. Also, all the funny looking marks on the receiver, bolt and magazine box are definite Radom production inspection stamps.

 

[Jsne]

One more of these depotbuild

Hi Guys

I dont think the stock is sanded or reefinished. The stock have got a clear wanish all over. (I will only remove it if it is absolutly neceserry)

I just got one more riffle with this numbersystem ( m1172N) from the same guy. It is a G29/40 with 660/1939 coded Radom resiever. The bolt is not matching, but proberply a Depot bolt. it have a 2 digit number 25 and should be 72.
Only other part not matching is the folower.

I will post Pictures soon.

I will keep the BNZ 41 but maby sell the G29/40

Any idear of vallue will be great?
I know this is not USA but I maby can find a buyer in Denmark or anywere else in Europe.

JSNE

 

[mauser99]

This is great news.. Cant wait to see it. The stock on the rifle in the u.s. has been ever so slightly sanded and varnished. I would say it was not war time done. The Dot markings are faint but there. So that's how I can tell the varnish isn't something the KM did to preserve the wood at sea. Im not sure how consistent the small part numbering is on these as the example found here differs slightly. Mostly the flip flopping from using all four digits to two. The stock is void of any proofs. The take down disc is serial matched to the barrel and receiver. The inside of the stock is pencil marked.

An all matching 29/40 in top condition might sell in the usa for 3500.00 roughly. Not sure what the market in Denmark is.

 

[Jsne]

One more Depot

Thank You Mauser99

Here is the 660 coded Radom G29/40 I also Have bougt.

Here are some Pictures. Feel free to ask anything you like.

 

[Jsne]

Some more Pictures

more Pictures

Number of bands also match.

Bore is Ok but not exelent.

I think I maby will start a new thread with these two depot rifles.

JSNE

 

[mauser99]

yes, a completely new thread is in order. Is the inside of the stock and hand guard numbered ? Or are there just pencil markings ?? I see on this example the navy test proofs are sideways. Id say there is alot of variation in the small markings. And the use of the last two digits only on most of the small parts including the bolt.

 

[Loewe]

I agree with M99 that these vary widely in serialing and acceptance, - even the proofing varies, this FP is typical but not unique to the variation. It seems a couple similar styles were used. JimP has a different variation and it is applied in front of the serial as more typical of normal production, - and right side up.

The BC, 150 Bö is a later 1940 SDP barrel (meaning found in the later blocks of typical 660/40 production - some early, as in no suffix serial numbers, G29/40 have close BC also. Most G29/40 have RD barrels, especially middle suffix ranges), "18" 42 Si is more typical mid-late 1941 bnz/41 production, though Si barrels are far less common than Böhler and StG blanks, which makes sense as they were Austrian firms.

What I find interesting about these, since we have been discovering more of them with their stocks, is that they share many similarities to the G29/40, which was the rifle SDP originally assembled for the KM. Sometime ago I asked Wolfgang to do some translating of one of Bruce’s-Speeds documents and the G29/40 was to be delivered to the KM, though early deliveries were to compensate Army shortfalls, which fits perfectly with G29/40 trends, - some early rifles are Army marked but the vast majority, especially middle-late suffix rifles, are KM marked. Obviously, imo, SDP delivered spares to the KM and later they assembled them into these rifles.

As to value, I agree that these are especially interesting rifles, very rare in original condition, and to a knowledgeable collector would carry a premium, however, that they are rather unique and this hobby is so overwhelmingly populated by novices (or idiots who have never cracked the spine of a book), it might be a tough sale to pull off for top dollar.

 

[mauser99]

here are some quick shots of the stock off the 660/40 29/40 km depot rifle.
this stock is dot coded down on the heel and serial numbered 2300N on the disc. I wanted to show the stock channel with the date 6-12-40 Kr

Im not sure what the connection with the Kr marking on the dot coded wood. As usually they would have one or the other. I know the channel marking is in pencil but, it looks period done to me. After seeing many examples of hand applied dates and serial numbers..

 

[Jsne]

Stock markings

The stock of the BNZ 41 are stamped with serial number inside the barrelchanal include handguard.

The G29/40 are penzilmarked. But it is hard to read. I will take both apart and take some Picture as soon as posible.

I know about the Price. In Denmark it will be werry hard to find a buyer who will pay a good Price.
Danish law make it dificult to collect weapons. So most just want a K98k, Enfield and what ever of some kind.

But There are also serius collectors.

If I cant sell it I just keep it. It is also nice to own something a little special.

JSNE

 

[mauser99]

That's interesting to hear.. Considering only bits and pieces of these rifles were ever know exist finding three complete rifle is quite something. Now I dare not call them rare.
I can only assume that with the K.M. contract with steyr large amounts of parts were purchased for repair and depot level builds like this. 29/40's in top condition bring a premium. Navy marked examples bring even more of a premium. So a K.M. depot built 29/40 is a scarce bird.. Many of us had never even seen or heard of one until this thread started.
But, finding someone who wants one might be a challenge. If I were you I would keep them.. Im sure you are the only one in the world who has two.. That's a pretty small club to be in !

 

[Jsne]

Stock marking again

Helo mauser99

I have to corect myself

There is no marking inside the BNZ41, No penzil mark or stampd marking.

I Was working on my BNZ43 as well when I took Pictures yesterday. Dont know what i am thinking about.

Here is some Picture of the pensil mark in the G29/40. They are mutch look alike them you send Picture of.

As far I can read : 5-10-42-KR

About the Clear Wanish on the stock. You say you dont think it was done to prevent the laminatet stock on KM riffles from saltwater.

Are you sure of that?

In this batch of riffles i Pickt up on a Danish Island "Bornholm" was 6 riffles Including these two. 3 with laminatet stock and 3 with hardwood stock. all with laminatet stock have got these wanish cote (the G29/40 only smal parts of the wanish left)

And the former owner have done nothing at all with the riffles.

I am not an Expert like you, but it seems strage that all the laminatet stoks are wanisht and you know of another one.

You can read the full storry in this link: http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?8667-!!!What-you-can-get-for-960-bucks-some-history!!!-
as you can se i get the G29/40 after the rest of the riffles. I told the man about the rare riffel he have owned and what he want for the last of them. He give it away for free in the hope it will be saved of history reaons.

And I think I take you advice and keep both of them.

JSNE

 

[mauser99]

if I was you i'd sell the bnz43 and the vz24. Keep the others.. They are very scarce and valuable. To us anyway. When I get time and get to the rest of the 29/40 I will do a full spread and we can merge the posts and photos into a KM depot rifle post.


I feel at least the example here the stock was messed with post war. As it has been lightly sanded. The second rifle you bought the 1939 29/40 has great wood and also appears varnished slightly. But not sanded.

I think just having one complete matching rifle is a task. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad.

 

[Jsne]

Selling

Hi again

That was the plan

I sell the BNZ 43, it is not macthing but is a nice shooter. It have got a nice barrel from an other defect K98
I have it on the firering range and it shot supricing good

The VZ24 may give what ever I gan get. and that is not mucth becouse of non macthing numbers and werry bad bore.
In good shape a VZ 24 in Denmark will give max 300-350 $

Thanks for Help


JSNE

 

[History]

If I were you and could afford to, I would keep them all together. You know they were all in that warehouse together. Cool story with proof would make these more valuable as a group?

 

[Absolut]

Why do you give advise to someone asking a question in 2013? I'm sure he has long decided now more than 6 years later.