Mauser Oberndorf Development of the Deutsches Sportmodell - general discussion thread

can we get a new interpretation of point 7 - unclear what is implied by words , "gas operated loading-system" ??????

does it reference a need to have better gas seal between bolt and ctg rim in chamber

all most sounds like they wanted to make a semi-auto trainer like the Reising M65. They then mention the K98 bolt and doing a conversion to
it, to make it semi-auto. Again, like the Autrailians did to the Enfield in WWII. Intereting doc., They did change the extractor on latter DSM 34's. So some
of these changes were done. Might have been a different outcome, if they had everyone equpted with semi-autos during WWII.
The STG-44 might have started development at that time period, thus stopping thoughts of converting the K98k.

on the subject of full power ctg bolt action to full power ctg semi-auto rifle conversions no country has ever mass produced or fielded such an abomination - not the Australians (Skennerton only shows a couple of experimental mock-ups that never saw production), not even the Canadians with their Ross straight pulls (see the The Ross Rifle Story for a good read) - can't think of any at all- it could only ever be a very bad idea with no future

even full power bolt action to low power auto as per Pedersen device was aborted for good reasons

the battle rifle is really very insignificant - it may help win a skirmish, but outcomes of wars are decided by GDP and WW2 was already decided in 1943 even if every axis soldier carried an mg42 as his personal weapon

but we digress - if the 1935 dated doc is a report on keeping the DSM like the 98k bolt action in all key aspects then item 7 should be read that way


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n64atlas said:

all most sounds like they wanted to make a semi-auto trainer like the Reising M65. They then mention the K98 bolt and doing a conversion to
it, to make it semi-auto. Again, like the Autrailians did to the Enfield in WWII. Intereting doc., They did change the extractor on latter DSM 34's. So some
of these changes were done. Might have been a different outcome, if they had everyone equpted with semi-autos during WWII.
The STG-44 might have started development at that time period, thus stopping thoughts of converting the K98k.

Click to expand...

Or were they thinking of something similar to the Walther Karabiner Models I and II that were a gas operated bolt semi-auto rifle.

Mauser Perspective Spun

These hand written "minutes" infer much beyond the discussion of production issues on the DSM don't they?

The impression I get is there were various government representatives present as well as other manufacturers of the DSM.

All these remarks were taken down by Mauser. My take on it is much of what was discussed is only touched on with these recorded comments. Their focus was to address the complaints from the customer on the current product but obviously the customer had further agendas.

There may be something lost in translation.

the following in point 7
"The incorporation of a gas-operated loading system, specifically pertaining to surrounding chamber and barrel area, would require a fundamental alteration of the bolt"

May translate to "gas shield or venting, and not an autoloader" This is most likely due to the fact that the bolt face on the DSM36 included a modification to surround the cartridge rim.

Some words do not translate the exact meaning as many of you know.

Jon Speed's take on this is this refers to the bolt face change.

We do not believe this indicates they were discussing developing a autoloader.

Lost in translation

Valuable lesson learned here not to duplicate in future efforts translating these documents.

I am editing point 7 in the sticky thread to read "gas-venting". Have second and third opinions from those fluent with the language that this is what was referred to.

My apologies for muddying the water.

Please no one jump to the conclusion that they were discussing an autoloader based on this.

This almost certainly is in reference to the inclusion of the gas venting features on bolt face and receiver and breech incorporated in the second variation Deutsches Sportmodell (DSM36)

thanks for clearing this up - it was fairly obvious immediately (even compensating for effects of translation) that the 1935 minute taker may have had good technical/engineering skills but was a woefully awful reporter/communicator

Remnt (?) Brothers in Suhl : the company referred to appears to be - Gebr. Rempt Suhl, more commonly known as Remo Gewehrfabrik - makers of sporting firearms of many kinds including 22 rifles drillings and shotguns including the 98 action based 12 16 and 20 g shotguns under the Remo name

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Point 6. Cartridge Loading

The modifications to improve the loading of cartridges which we initiated in November of the previous year (widening and increasing angle of loading tray, re-positioning extractor 30 degrees upwards, and lengthening of cartridge rim on loading surface of chamber) were approved by us and applied. Cartridge loading of this rifle conforms to requirements normally true of any firearm. Rotation of the firearm up to 30 degrees in either direction has no ill effect on loading of cartridge. For this reason, we had previously presented the idea of a loading ramp to both Walther in Zella-Mellis and Remnt (?) Brothers in Suhl and it was quickly rejected due to the resultant inescapable increase in production cost of the rifle. Needless to say, we are not denying that the oversight of not including a loading ramp into original design could be considered a mistake. The addition of a loading ramp can be considered should such be determined necessary.

screwdrivers

Excellent information. Thanks for spending the time. Genuinely enjoyed the post.