Berlin suhler waffen - 22 trainer - very nice

I recently inherited this gun. I am more of a sporting shotgun and rifle person and have limited knowledge of the Military field. It appears to be a German Trainer but more of a sporting version. Made by Simson in Suhl (I have had some of their very high quality doubles). The trigger pull is adjustable. Wood to metal fit is great. Looks like a quality piece, but I really don't have a clue of the model style etc. I would appreciate any input from the group. Thanks much!

Tried to upload more photos and I have exceed my limit. I would be willing to e-mail them to someone who could post.

Regards,

Guy
 

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Handsome rifle... no idea on model, but likely made in the early 30's. M99 will be by, and perhaps can assist. :thumbsup:
 
wow..what a 1st post !! This is a very rare rifle. Possible prototype ? Dare I say. Does it have a serial # ? And other barrel markings. This a rifle made circa 38/39 as it has the second moto BSW logo that shows up in that time frame. Please post some more photos PLEASE.. Not sure if there are any photos of this in Smallbores by speed ? Bob s. might be interested in seeing it as well. thanks for posting it here.
 
It looks like some sort of custom rifle. It looks to have the trigger guard and sling position of the Model W 625 (no suffix) series but the stock is checkered and there is a receiver configuration that I have never seen before. I am sure that if there are more out there then Simson and/or Luftmacher has seen it before. Looks like another well built BSW that looks like it would be fun to shoot. I look forward to learning more about the rifle.
 
This is the BSW Meisterschaftsbüchse. The design was presented to the leadership of the firm by Engineer Happ on April 7, 1936 as a contender to compete with the popular Walther and Mauser models which had dominated competition match shooting at the time (especially the Mauser ES 340 B and Meisterschaftsmodell ES 350 B, and Walther's Modell 5 and Meisterschaftsmodell).

The fate of the model hinged on its reception at the Versuchsanstalt Wannsee shooting conference that summer, where it was to be presented to authorities for testing. The results of that testing were to determine whether this model would enter production or not. If it were successfully accepted there, it was to begin production on 15 August 1936, immediately after the 1936 Summer Olympic shooting at Wannsee.

It is assumed that the new model was not well received at testing, as there is virtually no further mention of it in the firm's inter-office correspondence. It WAS listed in BSW's 1937 catalogs and advertising, but VERY, VERY FEW examples are known to exist. The most important part that this model played in trainer history (here is the bombshell) is that this model which apparently failed to capture the civilian market is almost undoubtedly the action which was used by BSW to create their first proposal as a replacement of the DSM for the SA. At least three or four were made into military trainer configuration, with one being sent to each of Mauser and Walther and discussed at the joint meeting of the three firms in April of 1938. Compare the measurements of this gun to those mentioned in Jon's Smallbores book in the minutes of that meeting, and the suggested dimensional changes agreed to there in the development of the plans for the KKW. Bingo.

Of the few of these that I have seen, yours comes close to exhibiting all of the features offered for this model in the 1937 catalog.

Steve
 
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Here is one page from the 1937 catalog, showing the rifle in its "deluxe" edition with heavy target stock and grip cap. The photo is of two other known examples in the Simpson collection, with one being a very late build with "Gustloff" receiver marking.
Steve

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They made a BSW and a Gustloff marked version of this rifle, very cool. It might not have been well received but I bet it is still a very accurate rifle.
 
Not exactly. Chalk it up to an unfinished receiver being in the inventory from what was almost certainly ONE brief and small production of these, and finished/assembled for an order after the firm's name change had taken effect.
Steve
 
I really wish that Simson/BSW serial numbered each rifle model from one. Their serial number process reminds me of tangled Christmas lights, it can be sorted out but it is going to take a long time. Do the small parts like barrel bands and trigger guards vary on this model based on when the rifle was assembled like the Model W 625 series rifles did? I would like to see detailed pictures of all three rifles. As always, thanks for the wealth of knowledge Luftmacher.
 
We have a pretty good estimate for dating by serial numbers. Combining data from observed examples (and a big Thanks! to all who have shared info/photos) with the company's files of documents in archives creates several specific points in time that are undeniable. The serial numbers for all of the firm's small bore rifles were in one system, and done chronologically---AS FINISHED to proof and deliver for orders. Thus, a wide variety of models could wind up in consecutive numbers, and makes it confusing to many researchers.
Steve
 
I really wish that Simson/BSW serial numbered each rifle model from one. Their serial number process reminds me of tangled Christmas lights, it can be sorted out but it is going to take a long time. Do the small parts like barrel bands and trigger guards vary on this model based on when the rifle was assembled like the Model W 625 series rifles did? I would like to see detailed pictures of all three rifles. As always, thanks for the wealth of knowledge Luftmacher.

Whatever the precise small quantity of these which were sold, they were only presented as commercial models---thus, no hand guard or bands involved. The handful (or fewer) which were worked up into military configuration were an effort by BSW to get the SA's approval for a new trainer. Very unlikely that any of those survived. They could be considered a "pre-prototype prototype" I suppose. The SA had made it clear to Fellmann of BSW in summer 1937 that they (the SA, aka chief customer) only wanted to deal with Mauser/Walther/BSW for a new model to replace the DSM. With that having been made clear, those are the only three firms which would produce the KKW when its final design was approved---despite the fact that five other firms purchased manufacturing rights.
Steve
 
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Erma, Geco, JGA, Weihrauch, and Venus. Probably as a contingency, or good politics. After learning that the number one customer was only going to buy from the three co-designers, there wasn't much motivation to pursue setting up production.
Steve
 
I have never heard of Venus. Did they make a DSM-34, if so do you have a picture of their logo?
 
Thanks for all the great info on this "way cool" gun. It was quite exciting to read! Should I not use Hi Velocity ammo in this gun?

Regards,

Guy
 
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