Kar.98b Trends

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Locked until the basic outline is created, will take time as these trends below are far from complete or uniformly recorded.

KAR.98b​

Mark Wieringa states dated ranges (1924-1926) from 371-1200 a

1924

323 - E/6 x3 (SR-Gew.98) N1487 (NBC- Kr* *possible Krupp* FP e/6x3) Dave Davis
371 – E/6 x2 E/14 (SR-Gew.98) Joe Steen & Mark Wieringa reports
890 - E/6 “dove”/5 E/6 (2nd dove acceptance unclear) (SR-Gew.98) (PeterK)
1738 – E/6 E/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) (bolt FP/E6) (sporter-scoped)
6880 - RR-n/a (re-barrel) (out of normal range but 1924 confirmed)

1925

2526 – e/6 x2 e/14 x1 (SRNA)
2632 – RRNA (SR-Gew.98)
2651 – RRNA (SR-Gew.98)
3014 – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR- Gew.98)
3681 – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
4605 – RRNA (SR-Gew.98)
5179 - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
5495 - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
6642 - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
6751 - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
6946 - RRNA (SR-Gew.98)
8770 - RRNA (SR-Gew.98)
8957 - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
9120 - Amoskeag-no data
9625 - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) (Chris)

452 a - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) ScottB-barrel f/p NA
1103 a - e/6 x1(e/6 under) e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
1201 a - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98)
1237 a - e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) barrel f/p next to serial


1926

1219 a – RRNA (SR-Gew.98) f/p next to serial
1517 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) re-barrel

S1 (S Top Receiver)

2212 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) f/p next to serial
1925 Simson 3643 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-Gew.98) f/p next to serial
3827 a – RRNA (SR-Gew.98) receiver only
3852 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 (SR-blank) f/p next to serial
40xx a – RRNA (SR-blank) CB report (think serial is 4017 a)
5710 a – e/6 e/? x2 (pitted) (SR-blank) (re-barrel) (bolt BF e/6 / FP / E/6)

S2 (S Right Receiver)

6783 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
6955 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
7035 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
7479 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
7884 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SRNA) CB rifle
7995 a – “h” e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
8188 a – e/6 x1 e/43 x1 e/6 x1 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
8211 a – e/6 x1 e/14 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
66 b – e/6 e/? e/6 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
1960 b – e/6 x3 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (barrel m/m)
2239 b – RRNA (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial rc (not sure S2 or S3)
2435 b – e/6 e/6 e/43 (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial

S3 (block S)

3418 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) nazi re-barrel
3430 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b)
3758 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
4531 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) nazi re-barrel
4891 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
5111 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
7659 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
8681 b - RR-n/a (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (re-barrel)
8951 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (K18A e/6 x3)
9276 b – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial - Unit: 1./A.R.3.85. (Muzzle Cover (Simson) 7./A.R.4.42.) (Lance)
3937 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (John Wall)
4241 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
4586 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial rc
4851 c – serial report only
5173 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) barrel NA
5211 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
5765 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (K31D e/33 x3 / S)
6118 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (John Wall)
6263 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) Aberdeen PG (Ken Huddle Report)
6388 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) re-barrel
6555 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) re-barrel (K26S re-barrel)
6919 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
8996 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
9067 c – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
9380 c – RRNA (K 36 B e/33 x3)
9641 c – RRNA (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (unit: R.R.15.35)
9804 c – RRNA (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
1034 d – e/6 x2 e/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (K 57 E e/33)
1895 d – e/6 x2 e/33 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (K40A e/33 / e/43)
2189 d – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (K40B e/33 x43)
2412 d – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
2931 d – e/6 x2 e/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) (nazi re-barrel)
3022 d – e/6 x2 e/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
3196 d – e/6 x2 e/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (K42B e/33 x43)
3431 d – e/6 x2 e/? S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
3774 d – E/6 E/43 E/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
4619 d – E/6 E/43 E/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (unit 2./A.R.7.100) (Horacio)
7001 d – e/6 e/46 e/43 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (John Wall)
8099 d – (SR-Karab.98b)
8384 d – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
8407 d – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
9137 d – FP E/6 E/43 E/6 S (SR-Karab.98b) (BC- K 48 B e/6 e/33)
9292 d – E/6 E/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial Joe Steen
9675 d – e/33 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (sporter)
489 e – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial (John Wall)
1054 e – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
2053 e – e/33 e/43 e/33 x1 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
2141 e – e/6 x2 e/33 S (SR-Karab.98b) report
2159 e – e/6 x2 e/43 e/33 S (SR-Karab.98b)
4116 e – serial report
4247 e – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
4413 e – e/6 e/43 x2 S (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
5576 e – e/43 x3 S (SR-Gew.98b) f/p next to serial (ScottB)
5864 e – e/43 x3 S (SR-Gew.98b) f/p next to serial (K58D e/43)
5885 e – e/33 e/43 x1 e/46 x1 S (SR-Gew.98b) f/p next to serial
5993 e – e/33 e/46 x2 S (SR-Gew.98b) f/p next to serial (MRJ189)
6006 e – e/33 e/46 x2 S (SR-Gew.98b) f/p next to serial (K50A e/43 e/33 e/43)

S4 (Rune S Right Receiver)

6390 e – e/6 x1 e/46 x2 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) f/p next to serial
6663 e – e/43 x1 e/46 x1 e/43 x1 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) nazi re-barrel (KCN94)
6867 e – unclear S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)
6943 e – e/6 e/46 e/43 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) John Wall
7792 e – e/6 e/43 e/43 S-Rune
8613 e –acceptance buffed out-faint S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)sporter
9282 e – e/6 e/43 e/43 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) (re-barrel)
900 f – e/33 x1 e/43 x2 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)
980 f – Amoskeag –serial report (SR-Karab.98b)
989 f – e/76 e/43 e/43 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) (FP next serial)
1077 f – e/33 e/43 x2 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)
1123 f – e/76 e/43 e/46 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) John Wall-Peter Kuck
1549 f – e/76 e/43 e/46 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)
1551 f – e/76 e/43 e/46 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)
1646 f – e/76 e/43 e/43 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b)
2000 f – e/76 e/43 e/43 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) (barrel e/76)
3265 f – e/43 e/76 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) Hermann Historica Report-sale
3318 f – e/76 e/43 e/46 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) (acceptance blurry- e/43 might be e/46)
3579 f – acceptance blurry S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) Dave Davis
5643 f – e/76 e/46 e/43 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) (K95D e/76 e/6)
6446 f – e/76 e/43 e/46 S-Rune (SR-Karab.98b) Bob Jensen & Backboner

S5 (Incursive S – Mod.98 Side rail)

6722 f – e/6 (e/6 top), e/43 e/46 “S” (incursive) (SR-Mod.98.) (BC- K96D e/46 / e/6 / e/76)
7536 f – e/6 e/43 x2 “S” (incursive) (SR-Mod.98.) nazi re-barrel
7680 f – e/76 x1 e/43 x2 S-Rune (SR-Mod.98.) Bob Jensen
7773 f - E/81 E/43 x2, “S” (incursive) (SR-Mod.98.) (BC - K100B, E/81x3, E/6)(bolt BF E/81)(AN-94)
7803 f – Joe Steen barrel report
8499 f – E/81 E/43 x2 “S” (incursive) (SR-Mod.98)
8758 f – RR-NA (SR-Mod.98)
8910 f – e/81 (e/6 top), e/43 e/43 “S” (incursive) (SR-Mod.98)
9482 f – e/81 e/67 e/6 “S” (incursive) (SR-Mod.98.)

441 g – e/81 e/6 x2 “S” (normal “S”) (SR-Mod.98.)


S1= S top receiver
S2= “S” RR
S3= “Block S” RR (2 styles, earlier with more curves)
S4= “Rune S” RR
S5= incursive “S” - Mod.98. siderails (Mod.98 designation est. September 1930- these rifle are post Sept. 1930 prod.)

S28​

1917/1920 WOK 5777 n – S28 traits
1918/1920 CG Haenel 5845 a – S28 traits
1918/1920 DWM 2042 – S28 traits
1918/1920 DWM 2807 – S28 traits
1918/1920 DWM 3125 – S28 traits
1918/1920 DWM 3478 – S28 traits (Chris)
1918/1920 DWM 5191 – S28 traits
1918/1920 DWM 6704 – S28 traits
1918/1920 DWM 7185 a – S28 traits
1919/1920 DWM 2538 – S28 traits
1919/1920 DWM 2805 – S28 traits

9300 - (report Joe Steen Oct/97)
9358 - C/O x3 with qualifiers -(Erfurt style f/p b/r)(S28 bolt)
9556 - C/O x3 with qualifiers - (Spandau style f/p receiver-rebarrel w/ Spreewerke blank/Su19 acceptance)
9848 - C/O x3 with qualifiers - S28 parts throughout

182 a - C/Q x3 with qualifiers - (BC - Kr 857 FRS) (deactivated-PW French proofs)
1063 a - (KCN1993 - Peter Kuck & Mark Wieringa posted #5)
1506 a - RR n/a, (bolt- matching lower flat FP/C/O) Stock TD- 1./R.R.3. 160 (KenL)
1564 a - C/Q x3 with qualifiers (John Wall)
1920 2043 a - (1920 TR confirmed - re-barreled)
2457 a - C/Q x3 (BC - Kr 693) (Joe Steen)
3121 a - C/O x3 with qualifiers (BC - Kr 837 FRS) Stock TD - A/R.R.10.81
4743 a - C/Q x3 with qualifiers (BC - Kr 857 FRS)
8142 a - RR n/a eGun 2011

1920 8200 a - C/O x3 no qualifiers (BC - Bo 848 FRS)
1920 8266 a - C/Q x3 no qualifiers (re-barrel-1938 blank)
1920 8294 a - C/Q x3 (BC - Bo 583 FRS) (Marion Mericle)
1920 8545 a - C/Q x3 no qualifiers (re-barrel-Simson barrel e/46 e/81 "late")
1920 9456 a - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers (BC - Bo 755 FRS)

1920 267 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers (receiver only-poor pictures)
1920 301 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers (NS re-barrel)(bolt - FP/E/s)
1920 334 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers (Bernd)
1920 407 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers (Bo 847 C/O x2 FRS)(bolt - FP/E/s) (TD- J.R.10.87)
1920 589 b - E/S C/O C/O with qualifiers, BSR (BC Bo 347 C/Ox3 FRS) (Chris)
1920 807 b - E/S C/O C/O with qualifier, BSR
1920 1714 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers BSR (BC- Kr 873 C/O x3 FRS)
1920 3309 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers BSR (BC - Bo 583 FRS) (Joe Steen)
1920 3846 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers BSR 1920 (BC- BO 873 C/O x3 FRS)
1920 4069 b - E/s C/Q C/O with qualifiers BSR (BC- Bo 350 C/O x3 FRS)
1920 4349 b - E/s C/Q C/O no qualifiers BSR (BC- Bo 350 C/O x3 FRS)
1920 4504 b - E/s C/Q C/O with qualifiers BSR rc
1920 5477 b – “h” E/s C/Q C/O
1920 6042 b - (report Joe Steen Oct/97)

A series of letters relating to the 98b/S28 from Joe Steen, who has since passed away, but it was posted in the MRJ and may lead to our better understanding. Joe Steen was one of the earliest researchers, and any examination of the 98b subject owes his memory a great debt.

Peter Kuck composed:


KARABINER COLLECTORS NETWORK May 1993

The Karabiner 98b
Some Observations and Speculations
Written by Mark J. Wieringa
Edited with additional illustrations by Peter Kuck 03/02/2003, 04/26/2006


When I (Wieringa ) committed to do this article some time back, I was hopeful that some serious research with a good number of recorded rifle markings would lead to some fairly solid conclusions. Unfortunately, this has not turned out to be the case. However, the assembled data is interesting, and this article presents a summary of the analysis conducted, along with some tentative findings.

The database for this analysis consists of information on 34 different Karab.98b examples. Some of these were not much more than receivers when recorded; it is no secret that it is tough to find a reasonable example of this model. The data were arrayed by ascending serial numbers, as it appears the main Simson production run is one serial sequence regardless of year of manufacture. If true, this would indicate a total Simson production of about 60,000. This seems to be reasonable given a 100,000-man post—WW I German army, the fact that this total excludes Gew.98 rifles converted to Karab.98b configuration, and the fact the infantry continued to use Gew.98 rifles modified with the new s.S. rear sight assembly. It also is compatible with the observed rarity of Karab.98b today.

A few words should be said about the design of the Karab.98b. At the end of WW I, the Allies stipulated that Germany’s small army have a very high proportion of cavalry units, the experiences of that conflict having demonstrated that horse cavalry was obsolete. The Allies reasoned that this restriction would further reduce the effectiveness of the Reichsheer by having the bulk of it equipped as cavalry troopers. The Germans adroitly sidestepped this inconvenience by treating its cavalry units as mounted infantry, and outfitted them accordingly. The Karab.98b is a direct result of this thinking; it is an infantry rifle, with a few concessions for carry on horseback such as the side— mounted sling and turned—down bolt. As such, its lineage is more directly traced to the “Radfahrer Gewehr” (special Gew.98 for bicycle troops) and the “Schutztruppen Gewehr” (special Gew.98 for mounted infantry in German Southwest Africa) than to the Kar.98a.

Six major variations of the Karab.98b were identified, based on markings. The basic physical characteristics of the model do not vary significantly, physical differences being largely confined to the use of reworked Gew.98 parts as compared with new Simson production parts. A mix seems to be the norm, with individual rifles ranging from all new parts to having many reworked or original Gew.98 parts. The six major variations identified are described below; it is entirely possible that others may exist.


Major Variations

“S 28” - This variation is a blank receiver rifle having Imperial style Crown/O acceptance markings, on most parts, an Imperial style test proof eagle, but no sidewall marking. The bottom flat of the receiver is marked with a large “S 28”, and several other parts are marked “S 28” as well. This marking may indicate that “S 28” was Simson’s “S-code,” but no Karab.98b has yet surfaced with S/28 on the top of the receiver ring, and it is not likely that any exist. The Imperial markings in this case are post-WW I inspection marks, and not old pre-1918 markings on reworked parts. It has been rumored, but not proven, that Imperial stamps were intentionally used to mask new production. Perhaps a more likely explanation is that no other markings had been given approval by military authorities, and that old (or old-style) dies were used until the down-wing eagle was adopted. Given the Imperial flavor of this variation, it has been placed first in the chronology of variations, even though several other rifles have lower serial numbers. It is possible this example represents a separate serial range, or it may represent an anomaly in a single serial sequence. Mark Wieringa examined only one example in the 9300 no letter range. The other examples examined by Peter Kuck are s/n 1063a and s/n 9456a. Receiver inspection is three Crown/O stamps. (check this)

Dated Simson - These rifles have full receiver markings of “SIMSON & Co., SUHL.” with the date of manufacture. Manufacture dates of 1924 (s/n 9456 a) and 1925 (s/n 2632) are confirmed, and 1926 is reliably reported but not verified. Receiver sidewalls are still marked “Gew.98.” Although dated Simson Karab.98b have been established, it is possible that both Karab.98b and Gew.98 variants were produced with Simson receiver markings. Very few of these dated Simsons turn up, and most seem to have been later converted to Kar.98k configuration, or sporterized. These appear to come second in the chronological sequence as one has some “S 28” parts, they still have the “Gew.98.” sidewall marking, and the serial number range fits. Receiver proofing consists of the typical Weimar down-wing eagle test proof, and down-wing Eagle/6, Eagle/6, Eagle/14 on 1924 dates, or Eagle/6, Eagle/14, Eagle/14 on the 1925 dates. Serial range is 371 to 1200a on the few-recorded examples.

S Receiver - This variation is similar in markings to the dated Simson, except that the receiver lacks the full markings, having only a capital “S” on the top. This mark is centered on the receiver, about two—thirds of the way to the front edge, and is similar in size to the capital letters used in the normal receiver markings. The serial range, acceptance markings, and “Gew.98.” sidewall marking indicate it falls third in the chronological sequence. Receiver proofing is down-wing Eagle/6, Eagle/14, Eagle/14. Eagle/14 inspection appears only on the earliest Karab.98b, and is not seen after this variation.

Blank Receiver - This is the most common Karab.98b variation, having the script “Karab.98b.” or “Gew.98” sidewall marking, a blank receiver top, and an “S” (of various forms) on the right front of the receiver, forward of the inspection markings. The data array shows that this variation logically follows the previous variation, the Simson “S” having been moved from the top of the receiver to the right side, and the “Gew.98” marking superseded by the “Karab.98b” inscription. This variation actually encompasses two sub-variations: those using reworked Gew.98 receivers and those using new production receivers. Reworked Gew.98 receivers are sometimes seen, and may be intermixed throughout the production run. The same may be true of other parts. Serial numbers start in the low “b” range and extend into the high “e” or low “f” range, based on the admittedly statistically inadequate observation sample.

Initially, it was thought that the shape of the Simson “S” on the right receiver might be a type of code for the date of production. Six distinct forms of the “S” are known, as shown in the accompanying chart. Unfortunately, although some general trends can be seen, a pattern did not emerge when the receiver inspection/acceptance markings and “S” type were arranged by ascending serial number. In general, the slanted block “S” was the last style, preceded by the vertical block “S”. The runic and stylized “S” was intermingled, and the standard capital “S” was normally found on the earliest rifles. The script “S” was observed only on the “Mod.98” variation discussed below. Twenty-five Karab.98b of this variation were available for this analysis of receiver markings.

Receiver inspection/acceptance markings also showed no clear pattern. Eagle/6 and Eagle/43 are the most common, and are found throughout production. Eagle/76 and Eagle/46 appear sporadically, while Eagle/33 does not appear until the high “c” range. The order or combination of these four inspection stamps is inconsistent, and no conclusions concerning them can be drawn at this time.




“Mod.98” Marked - The last variation is the most enigmatic. Although both recorded examples are in the “b” block, it is felt that these are very likely out of the normal serial sequence. The receiver tops are blank, and yet another variation of the Simson “S,” a script letter, is in the usual location. Test proof eagles are very similar. However, the acceptance office numbers are quite different from other “b” block examples, being Eagle/81 and Eagle/67 in addition to the more familiar Eagle/43. The sidewalls of this variation are marked “Mod.98.” in script, in a style similar to, but distinctive from that on “S/27”, “27”, “ax”, and “ce” coded Kar.98k. As it is known that the “Mod.98.” marking was established by a September 1930, army order, it seems reasonable to assume that these must be late Karab.98b made between late 1930 or 1931 and about 1933. The “b” block serial numbers can not be explained with the information available.

I miss my conversations with Joe Steen.
Back before the internet we used snail mail and the phone to discuss topics and our conversations were always fun and illuminating!

bruce98k said:

I miss my conversations with Joe Steen.
Back before the internet we used snail mail and the phone to discuss topics and our conversations were always fun and illuminating!

Click to expand...

Agreed, Joe Steen only did letters and I saved every last one, about 20 I guess, but luckily Bob T. was a close compadre of his and we still chat (exchange email) and we often discussed topics from this forum today, but he doesn't do forums unfortunately (I have tried to get him to join...), - a last survivor of the founding generation (of our pastime)

BTW I will open this thread when I flesh out trends, done most of the S28 generation and working on 1925 Simson, will post everything I can on the subject that I think will not offend private discussions, - all in the hope that the data isn't lost, any rifle you need more specifics on or the pictures or a foundation for inclusion (some are mere reports) just inquire. This is intended to further future research, nothing more.

Paul, I will add additional data on the 98b to this section in Volume IV.
I will also revisit the S28 giving the Mauser/DWM connection.

As for the Model 1928 rifle mentioned in the Mauser records, it remains a puzzle. I am not sure about S28 rifles being assembled that late.
But thats a topic for the S28 thread.