K98k sniper ammunition question

This is a double question
First question is what dose everyone get for best group size with there K98k using modern or reloaded ammunition?

Second question what was the accuracy improvement over regular German ball ammo that the German “Sniper loading” actually provided?

Dose anyone know how the light ball and steel core ammo faired as well?
 
You will likely get variable answers to the first question, but there may be some trends.

You are unlikely to get any real answers to the second question. Unless there is surviving original documentation from period testing that someone has uncovered in an archive you're unlikely to run into anyone that knows much beyond general "minimum" standards, which likely evolved and changed over time throughout production. Even if such documentation exists, it is only a glimpse into an individual test that was documented, and may or may not represent the total population of rifles/ammunition produced.

The problem with this question is that there are so many variables at play that it is almost impossible to isolate and quantify the variables. On the surface level you see "K98k" with "Bullet A" in "Ammunition A" (with associated powder, case, primer). The problem is that every one of those things is made up of sub-components, and every one of those sub-components is made up of a raw material or several raw materials and is run through several processes. Each one of the raw materials comes from one or many suppliers/sources and is of variable quality/performance. Each process produces a distribution of end result (Dimensions, tolerances, heat treat, cold work, grain size, forming, hardness, concentricity) etc. The specifications for all of these things change over time (especially in a war). This goes all the way down to the soil content of the trees that were turned into wood pulp to be nitrated to form the nitrocellulose to make the gunpowder, or the specific ore from a specific mine that was used to make the copper or steel strip that was turned into a bullet jacket or cartridge case. This may seem like a deep rabbit hole, because it is. The point is that there is a variation present in every step along the way in the production of the ammunition, as well as the rifle and optic components, and the seemingly simple question of "What is the accuracy produced by XYZ?" is not simple at all. It is the combined dynamic interaction of every piece involved, which is a variable event in itself, and which is subject to all of the variation that occurs in the entire production process leading up to the firing event.

I am an engineer at an ammunition company (Have you noticed?), and we deal with this all the time for government contracts where accuracy requirements are posted. The requirement is Rifle B with Ammunition Y must not produce groups larger than 2 MOA, as an example. The problem is that you can take 50 rifles sequentially made on the same setups with the best components and base materials available, and shoot premium match-grade ammunition that is thoroughly tested for concentricity, weight variation, accuracy potential of the bullet, highest quality powder and primers, and good cases, and you can shoot test groups from those 50 rifles. 30-40 of them will pass the specification easily, 5 of them will flirt with the edge, and the rest will fail. So you have top tier rifles shooting top tier ammunition. Why are there variable results? See the above paragraph. It's the specific interaction between THAT rifle and THAT ammunition and the end result is a variable distribution from rifle to rifle and ammo to ammo. Also, as tooling wears or bullet/powder/primer/case lots change, performance will change. Different lots of "the same" ammo will produce different results. Rifles that initially passed the specification will fail, and rifles that initially failed will pass. Infuriating.

Now add 80 years of variation in maintenance :)
 
Sniper Sepp Allerberger wrote: "Our first issue of sniper ammunition was distrubted from boxes bearing the designation 'Anschuss' to distinguish them from ordinary rounds. The instructor explained thaat the projectiles hda been prepaared individually to ensure maximum precision. When at the front, we were to sak our armourers for them specifically. We calibrated the optical sight over a distaance of 100 metres." (see page 88 of Sniper on the Eastern Front)

WW I American (Canadian service) Herbert McBride mentioned that he thought MG ammo was more accurate and tried to get that for his sniping.

Our own GIs found that the AP (black tipped) 30-06 were superior for accuracy.

Like firebug implied, every rifle will shoot differently. It's up to the shooter to find which (within SAAMI spec) ammo works best with that particular rifle.
 
Lots of variables between rifles, ammo & shooters. Most ammo (then & now) is loaded by machines & charge is based on volume rather than weight. (Firebug90 may correct me on this)

@Ryanjames170 , what bullet weight do you mean by “ light ball” and which steel cored ammo? (SmK vs SmE) ?
 
Lots of variables between rifles, ammo & shooters. Most ammo (then & now) is loaded by machines & charge is based on volume rather than weight. (Firebug90 may correct me on this)

@Ryanjames170 , what bullet weight do you mean by “ light ball” and which steel cored ammo? (SmK vs SmE) ?

By light ball I am referring to the 153gr patrone S,
I can’t imagine the SmE was better then S.s in a rifle as far as accuracy goes.
 
Lots of variables between rifles, ammo & shooters. Most ammo (then & now) is loaded by machines & charge is based on volume rather than weight. (Firebug90 may correct me on this)

That's still largely the case. Only exception at this point that I'm aware of would be small boutique shops.
 
That's still largely the case. Only exception at this point that I'm aware of would be small boutique shops.
Except for 12 ga shells, I’ve stopped measuring powder by volume altogether, I use an electronic auto scale for rifle & pistol cartridges, it doesn’t add much time on a turret press, (I don’t have any progressives) & I get better uniformity. Before black powder season, I weigh out the extra charges for those reloads also. There are other important variables but since I can hear light loads, it seemed any easy one to ‘fix’. AND tho not inexpensive, (+$200) it makes reloading easier, faster & more fun because I don’t have to fuss around so much, or fret about squib loads. I still check the weights every 5-10 loads or so.
 
By light ball I am referring to the 153gr patrone S,
I can’t imagine the SmE was better then S.s in a rifle as far as accuracy goes.
I’m asking because the S ammo w/154gn bullet was produced into 1940 for captured G98s from Czechoslovakia & Poland, by the mid’30s the standard issue round for K98k & MG34 was the 198gn s.S. ball. It was central to horse drawn logistics that the infantry round be universal between rifle & MGs. The ‘special load’ for snipers was still s.S. ball, @198gn. By ‘35, s.S. ball was the standard issue round.
I’d let actual testing determine which weight/loading might be the more accurate, show me the data!
 
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I’m asking because the S ammo w/154gn bullet was produced into 1940 for captured G98s from Czechoslovakia & Poland, by the mid’30s the standard issue round for K98k & MG34 was the 198gn s.S. ball. It was central to horse drawn logistics that the infantry round be universal between rifle & MGs. The ‘special load’ for snipers was still s.S. ball, @198gn. By ‘35, s.S. ball was the standard issue round.
I’d let actual testing determine which weight/loading might be the more accurate, show me the data!

I’m asking because the S ammo w/154gn bullet was produced into 1940 for captured G98s from Czechoslovakia & Poland, by the mid’30s the standard issue round for K98k & MG34 was the 198gn s.S. ball. It was central to horse drawn logistics that the infantry round be universal between rifle & MGs. The ‘special load’ for snipers was still s.S. ball, @198gn. By ‘35, s.S. ball was the standard issue round.
I’d let actual testing determine which weight/loading might be the more accurate, show me the data!
I wonder what is different about the sniper load vs the standard ball and the MG marked loading.
 
s.S. ball = ‘fur MG’ despite the marking but I’d love data to prove it.
sniper? likely carefully weighed & selected bullets & powder, like ‘match ammo’. if it were anything simpler/easier, they would have made all the ammo that way. (IMO)
 
s.S. ball = ‘fur MG’ despite the marking but I’d love data to prove it.
sniper? likely carefully weighed & selected bullets & powder, like ‘match ammo’. if it were anything simpler/easier, they would have made all the ammo that way. (IMO)
I would assume there was a reason for it being marked For MG, but I don’t think I’ve seen anything that says why, but I would think from my reading of WWII German accounts of the war there was a reason,

I would think that would be the case too I know I have read the SMKH cores where weighed individually
 
I would assume there was a reason for it being marked For MG, but I don’t think I’ve seen anything that says why, but I would think from my reading of WWII German accounts of the war there was a reason,

I would think that would be the case too I know I have read the SMKH cores where weighed individually
there was indeed a reason, but it probably isn’t what you’re thinking. If you’re inclined to continue research, “German 7.9MM Military Ammunition” by Daniel W. Kent is an excellent resource. (but out of print IIRC)
The International Ammunition Association has mucho good info online.

this thread lists out many 1st hand ww2 accounts by Germans:
 
I've tried every modern commercial loading 8mm, and always come back to S&B 196gr FMJ for accuracy.
With the hornady 8mm match coming in behind.

For surplus it used to be M75 Yugo "sniper" ammo with the purple primer paint. However good luck finding any nowadays.
*I am seeing nice results as far as inexpensive surplus goes in my mauser rifles and snipers with the 8mm greek ammo thats been coming in import for range shooting out to 600 yards.

Contemporary accounts like Bruno sutkus's memoir mentions pre-war german ammo and captured Yugo 8mm was his preference.

Sepp allerberger mentions during course training they were given high quality ammo meant for sighting in and told to beg their battalion armorer in the field for more. It
was made with attention to detail and uniform components (like match grade). I think it was Anschuß ammo.

As for lightball, only experience I have is with today's turkish version of the s. Patrone, very flat shooting but quality is 50/50 from poor storage, fantastic stuff if you have a Gewehr 98 with the lange visier sights you don't have to aim 2-3 feet below where you want to aim.
 
I have found S&B to be good also. Have shot my LT in vintage sniper matches with S&B 196gr and did well.
 
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I have a couple of different lots of Yugo ammo. The 50’s is good plinking ammo for bolt action rifles. I also have a bunch of the 70’s/80’s (non sniper) which I hear is much better and can be used in semi autos. I also have some of the Royal Yugo which is pre war which I have heard is excellent but haven’t tried any yet.

IMG_3071.jpeg
 
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To answer the first question . A good reload is Much better than any surplus and better than any US commercial ammo . But that does depend on the shooters skill , if he can't shoot any better than a 6 inch group he is not going to see much difference in the ammo used . Due to the twist rate and case size , the best shooting bullet weight for a K-98 k is about 150 to 165 . 198 + just can not be driven to the velocity needed for best accuracy do the the case size available for powder when kept to a usable pressure . The German 198 was NOT picked for the best accuracy in the K-98k , it was pick for machinegun performance . The Fur MG just meant standard ammo was lubed for MG use . Any of the Sm type ammo will have a little accuracy problem as the hard metal core may not be centered perfectly in the lead and jacket covering . I ran a military rifle match for about 20 years with as issued rifles . The 150 Hornady was the dominant bullet in and German Mauser type 8mm rifle , with the club record small group being 0.638 5 shot at 100 yards with the H-150 bullet . Nobody was ever competitive with any surplus ammo , and we are talking 10's of 1000's of targets .
 
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