NARA document from March 1945 on Sniper Testing - Shooting test over 600M.

Really interesting 3-page document from March 1945 and only weeks away from the end.

Part of the research for V4.

This is a first pass translation but its close.

B.

Neat document, did it have the test targets with it?

Do you think the K98b designation on the second page is a typo or on purpose?

PS: would prefer to the original German document. Or at least as an addendum .

Absolut said:

Do you think the K98b designation on the second page is a typo or on purpose?

PS: would prefer to the original German document. Or at least as an addendum .

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It's not a typo, it was on purpose. A while ago I brought up the topic of late K98b snipers, but there was no interest in it, maybe it was considered a typo on my part.

At that time it was a big topic that the K98k lacked accuracy, it was simply a scoped carbine. This K98b was deliberately chosen, it had a longer barrel, and this particular carbine had a barrel with particularly good accuracy.

Already a year earlier, there weren't enough K98ks suitable for sniper use. As you know, the K98ks with the best shooting results were selected and fitted with scopes. At that time, the switch was made to the K43. If the number of K43s assembled is increased and the number of K98k assembled is reduced by the same amount, there will be significantly fewer usable K98k carbines available for sniper assembly. The leadership had realized this and solutions to this problem had to be found.

I'm absolutely fascinated with stuff like this, thanks for posting. The idea that they were still, just weeks from the end, doing such bureaucratic things intrigues the heck out of me.

Original pages - notably the K98k changes to a K9Bb on 2nd page.

No surprise that the K98b would shoot better. Thank you Bruce98k!

Should include it in Vol IV.

Stephan98k said:

It's not a typo, it was on purpose. A while ago I brought up the topic of late K98b snipers, but there was no interest in it, maybe it was considered a typo on my part.

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After re-reading and looking at the original document I am very certain it is a typo. Note that on the first page they list

Lfd. Nr. Waffen-Art Nr. Schussleistung bekannt vorher als: Zielfernrohrf Streuung Höhe Breite in cm Bemerkg.
3 K98k 3385 gut Kahles, Wien 4x 66 66 12 Schuss

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And on second page:

Lfd. Nr. Waffen-Art Nr. Zielfernrohrf Streuung in cm Höhe/Breite 1000m Höhe/Breite 1200m
3 K98b 3385 Kahles, Wien 4x 65 103 - -

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Clearly the same rifle with the same serial and same scope.

The fact that the serial numbers of the two rifles carbines and scopes are identical is obvious at first glance and we all know that is impossible. You asked a clear question and I answered it correctly. If I hadn't examined the document in detail and didn't know the background, I certainly wouldn't have written a comment. If my words were based only on assumptions, I would have written that it was just my assumption.
Without background knowledge and without context, the typo could be on one side or the other. In this case, the probability calculation might be helpful. The following is a example of how I approach such things and often it already answers some questions.

The letter "k" is not next to the letter "b" on the typewriter keyboard, so that certainly isn't the cause of the typo.

For us, a K98b scoped carbine is extremely unusual for trials in March1945, right? So it's more likely that the designation "K98b" on page 2 is a mistake, rather than "K98k" on page 1? This is wrong because then we are assessing it from today's perspective and we have to put ourselves in the shoes of the soldier in March 1945. Keep in mind, the K98b was also unusual for the writer in March 1945, the standard weapon was the K98k.

This doesn't give us proof yet, but it does give us a tendency and the probability is higher that the typo is on the first page.

Please review the document again, especially page 2. The #3 Karabiner 98b Sn. 3385 was not fired at the 1,200-meter range and for comparable results, please review the 1,000-meter shooting results.


In comparison to the K98b (number 3), a K98k (number 4) was shot, which was previously known to have good shooting performance, and also a K98k (number 5) which was previously known to have average shooting performance.
These 1,000 meter results correspond to the expectations and statements of participants in similar tests before and even the K98k, known for its good shooting, performed significantly less well than the Karabiner 98b.

Looking at these shooting results, the probability that it could have been a K98k is extremely low and again, the probability is higher that the typo is on the first page. So far we only have assumptions, but in my opinion they are already quite clear and plausible.

I just confidently said "It's not a typo, it was on purpose." because it's not a assumption, but fact and based on other documents. It would be more productive if the people asked questions if they see something differently. If you had asked if I had solid evidence for it, I would have said yes, search for the documents and sent them to you. If I have access to my other data again in around two weeks and I'm healthy enough, then I will send it to you. Until then you have to trust my words.

These typos seem to have occurred frequently, on other days this K98b Sn. 3385 was described in more detail. As example "K98b mit langem Lauf der gute Schussleistung besitzt- K98b with long barrel that has good shooting performance".

No one mentions rifle number 6 on page 1. As I said before, I'm not a sniper collector, so I don't know what the current state of knowledge is, as I don't have any specialist literature on the subject. I can only help you if I know what's unknown to you and if you ask questions. Since number 6 wasn't mentioned as unusual or unknown, it seems the collectors know the weapon type "ZFGw." with Sn. 51937. For the members who doesn't know it, this Zielfernrohrgewehr (Scoped rifle) was a late experimental rifle for sniper use, built in Zella-Mehlis, it had a heavy barrel and a special half-stock.

The shooting results of the "ZFGw." were disappointing at 800 meters, at a distance of 300 meters this rifle (not this one, but the Sn 51936 or 51938) was quite precise. The shooting results of the "ZFGw." were better than those of the standard K43, K43 with medium-heavy barrel, K43 with extra-heavy barrel and K98k. On that day, only the Karabiner 98b and a Gewehr 98 (like introduced in Mexico and Turkey) in caliber 7x57 had similar good shooting results.

Now I have written so much and this fact hasn't changed - it's without doubt a Karabiner 98b.

Stephan, all weapons from the first page are identical to the second page. It is therefore safe to assume that the weapon listed on first page as K98k serial 3385 is the very same weapon as listed on page 2 as K98b serial 3385. I'm not claiming this very gun to be a K98k nor K98b, just saying that either of the two designations has to be an error and they are talking on the very same gun. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yeah, I did note ZFGw. 51937 and had been wondering on what this is.

Absolut said:

Yeah, I did note ZFGw. 51937 and had been wondering on what this is.

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Georg, I forgot the manufacturer, it's Hermann Schneider from Zella-Mehlis and now you know what to look for. If a "Sporter" from this company with a scope mount ever shows up, check carefully. Such a piece could easily be mistaken for Bubba's work.

@flynaked
If I remember correctly, this is a topic that could also interest you.

Wow, this is very intriguing, has anymore documentation on this weapon surfaced? A five digit serial number sounds commensurate with a larger maker in Suhl/Z-M, but high for HS, with their 1945 s/n range falling around 8-9k. Off the top, Gustloff for instance would be in the 50k range or so, not sure on exact dates though. I’d have to look at other makers to make anymore guesses from that serial.

Stephan,

Did you go through the earlier trials/test documents in the German archives. I saw that they were digitized, I *assumed* that was you.

flynaked said:

Wow, this is very intriguing, has anymore documentation on this weapon surfaced? A five digit serial number sounds commensurate with a larger maker in Suhl/Z-M, but high for HS, with their 1945 s/n range falling around 8-9k. Off the top, Gustloff for instance would be in the 50k range or so, not sure on exact dates though. I’d have to look at other makers to make anymore guesses from that serial.

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At the moment I can only remember the mention of these weapons in various shooting tests and there are numerous documents about the motives for creating these special scoped rifles for snipers. Since July 1943, Jn.2 (Inspection of the Infantry) has been demanding these weapons and also special ammunition. It was rejected on the grounds that the upcoming K43 ZF4 will bring an increase in performance and will be the final solution; until then, the K98k with commercial scope will have to suffice as an interim solution. Already mid April 1944 it was recognized that the K43 ZF4 could not meet expectations, the shooting results were worse than those of the interim solution. Changes were made to the K43 to improve shooting performance, even better ammunition was used, but the shooting results were still lower than those of the K98k. The tests had shown that the K98k, with specially selected ammunition, could engage a target the size of a chest target with some certainty at a distance of 300 meters, but not a head target. The experts were no longer convinced that further development or improvement of existing weapons would only lead to further interim solutions. In July 1944, Jn.2 again demanded the creation of a special scoped rifle, a precision weapon for snipers. It seems that was the beginning of these special rifles from Hermann Schneider. Apart from the details I mentioned before (stock and heavy barrel), I didn't see anything else.

A sniper rifle was constructed in a sniper training company, under the responsibility of an officer of the sniper training company and an armorer helper. This rifle is described in great detail, covering several pages. This rifle should be built by the armorer helper under the supervision of the officer at company Dürkopp in Bielefeld.

I agree with you, Gustloff suits very well and keep in mind LSR was build with Gustloff receivers around this serial number range.

Yeah the more I thought about it, I would agree it’s very likely an Lsr with that serial and the circumstances. I wonder if all the ssr and lsr in the area were fit by commercial companies, we already know HW built ssr components. We also know for certain that this was the case with SC snipers built in Innsbruck. In any event, this is a very interesting rifle and scenario you’ve mentioned, thanks for the reply.

Fal Grunt said:

Stephan,

Did you go through the earlier trials/test documents in the German archives. I saw that they were digitized, I *assumed* that was you.

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Nathaniel, yes I did that and the difficult thing is that the documents are often not well organized. Over the past few months, I have read several thousand documents and created tables to organize them chronologically and by context. Individual documents are often problematic and in most cases, further correspondence is required.

I saw your Einstecklauf 24 thread and I wanted to write something about it, hopefully I will have time/energy for it soon. Thanks for starting this important topic. There are some misunderstandings regarding the small-bore rifle and the E.L.24, the importance of these small bore weapons for rearmament is often underestimated. These devices made it possible for soldiers to continue training and conducting firearms practice despite the restrictions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles. There was a severe shortage of ammunition and above all, money. Only by saving S and later sS ammunition could sufficient secret stocks be built up. In the event of mobilization, sufficient supplies had to be available, which was created, among other things, through such measures.

By the way, I like your pressure test experiments. I should have some interesting documents for you, more later.

flynaked said:

Yeah the more I thought about it, I would agree it’s very likely an Lsr with that serial and the circumstances. I wonder if all the ssr and lsr in the area were fit by commercial companies, we already know HW built ssr components. We also know for certain that this was the case with SC snipers built in Innsbruck. In any event, this is a very interesting rifle and scenario you’ve mentioned, thanks for the reply.

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I don‘t think it is a LSR because it clearly states it it NOT be a K98k, and given the designation used I really doubt this being a typo.

Yeah I just mean K98k base for development, if it was a half stock heavy barrel it would no longer be called a K98k. In my mind I ponder something along the lines of a Zfk55, but what it really looks like who knows!

flynaked said:

Yeah the more I thought about it, I would agree it’s very likely an Lsr with that serial and the circumstances. I wonder if all the ssr and lsr in the area were fit by commercial companies, we already know HW built ssr components. We also know for certain that this was the case with SC snipers built in Innsbruck. In any event, this is a very interesting rifle and scenario you’ve mentioned, thanks for the reply.

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You are very welcome!

The two rifles known to me had consecutive serial numbers and were apparently taken from K98k assembly. The document shows that these rifles had commercial scopes mounted, they had a half-stock and a heavy barrel.

You asked another important question and you are right, Hermann Weihrauch built components. The mounting of commercial scopes on K98k was also carried out by this company. The Anschuss was carried out at the Army Acceptance Place Zella-Mehlis and at the beginning of 1945, a sighting-in shooter there was a Mr. Möller from Hermann Weihrauch.

Very interesting, I wonder if the proof house itself was used for the acceptance or just within the town, I would have to assume it was. I have another document mentioning the final test firing of military rifles sent to Suhl when a permanent firing range was not yet available, I assume the same scenario existed there.