1903 WMO Commercial Gew98 in Patrone 88

[chrisftk]

Hi All,

I am very excited to be the new caretaker of a unique rifle. This is a 1903 commercial WMO production Gew98 that was built chambered in Patrone 88, and has not had a single update.

I frankly never thought I would come across a rifle this original. I am not fully certain what the story is with these early WMO commercial rifles, though a few have popped up with various levels of mismatch or rework.

This was posted several years ago, but I thought I would share a more granular study of it including all of the original features.

The most striking feature is the unaltered chambering, and by extension the original pattern rear sight leaf, slider and base.


In addition, the bolt retains all of its original pattern features:

Narrow gas escape holes

Original pattern cocking piece:

Original Pattern firing pin

Original Pattern bolt sleeve lock

I would be willing to bet it also has the original pattern ejector (with round vs. oval hole) as well, but i am not a fan of removing the ejector box to check if i can avoid it.

In addition, it even has the original pattern bayonet lug (without the divots)



The very odd thing about it was that i discovered it was duffel cut in front of the rear band,


No way to tell if this was a WW1 bring-back that saw actual use (it kind of has the look of a carried gun), or if it was even a WW2 bring-back.

In either case, it's a survivor and beat tremendous odds to avoid destruction or reworking of any kind. I am very humbled to have this one and extremely appreciative that Mike was willing to pass it along to me.

 

[chrisftk]

Full Photo spread

SN 65469

Full SN on Barrel, Receiver, Handguard and Stock
Partial SN on Front Band, Ejector, Rear sight leaf and slider, sear, Bolt components, triggerguard and floorplate

I am unsure what the BL G. on the barrel indicates

 

[chrisftk]

More photos
Note the markings on the barrel, bayonet lug, trigger and rear of the bolt handle.

The rear screw had a witness mark to denote it's proper position.

 

[feldmütze]

Excellent writeup & photo shoot Chris!

 

[biggymu]

What an amazingly rare rifle. I was not aware of their existence. Thank you for posting this Chris. Is anything written on these in a reference? The 65k range serial, does that denote the number of these produced? The caliber and rear site are very interesting. Congratulations again!

 

[11mm]

A great find. Thanks for the excellent pictures. Who was the original customer? Mauser could probably, as a private firm, sell directly to civilians. Or was it a salesman's sample?

 

[chrisftk]

Excellent writeup & photo shoot Chris!

Thanks Mike, this was an exciting one to look over. I was barely home 5 minutes before i started breaking it down and taking pics. lol.

What an amazingly rare rifle. I was not aware of their existence. Thank you for posting this Chris. Is anything written on these in a reference? The 65k range serial, does that denote the number of these produced? The caliber and rear site are very interesting. Congratulations again!

Thanks Rick! Until they adopted the S. Patrone they all would have had this pattern of sights. I believe in 1905, the rifles in military hands were reworked into the pattern we know (I have a number of rifles with 200m bases, but the new pattern leaf) New production rifles were simply made in the updated spec beginning in late 03/ early 04 (if memory serves). My opinion is the fact that this was a commercial rifle saved it from such a rework at the time, even if it saw some degree of service later.

The 65k SN does not indicate production, but to my understanding was tied to some internal Mauser system of numbering. I believe production of these was quite low. The deep Mauser folks on here can keep me honest on that.

The best reference on the evolution of the Gew98 design is Storz's "Rifle and Carbine 98". He does a good job of walking through the modifications made to the bolt group, sights, etc. as issues emerged. I've owned plenty of rifles with some of the early features, but this is a rare bird in that everything is original. It's a real time capsule.

A great find. Thanks for the excellent pictures. Who was the original customer? Mauser could probably, as a private firm, sell directly to civilians. Or was it a salesman's sample?

Thanks! We can only speculate on original user. This may have been a sample, a private purchase, possible organizational, or any variety of things. The dufflecut really adds some mystique, to which I can only guess on.

 

[GEM]

Full Photo spread

SN 65469

Full SN on Barrel, Receiver, Handguard and Stock
Partial SN on Front Band, Ejector, Rear sight leaf and slider, sear, Bolt components, triggerguard and floorplate

I am unsure what the BL G. on the barrel indicates
View attachment 296833View attachment 296834View attachment 296835View attachment 296836View attachment 296837View attachment 296838View attachment 296839View attachment 296840View attachment 296841View attachment 296842View attachment 296843View attachment 296844View attachment 296845View attachment 296846View attachment 296847

BL G: This marking was familiar and I did some digging in my reference books. "Training Rifles of Third Reich Germany" has an extensive section on Wehermanngewehr rifles. A picture of a MO 1908 rifle s/n 88746 (8.15X46R) on page 416 with the caption "marking Bl. G. Sch. H. which represents Bleigeschoss, Schwacher Haltung (unjacketed soft lead bullet with reduced powder load) as a precaution against high powered loads." Others may know if your mark is a truncation of this meaning or if it refers just to the use of lead bullets, discounting the reduced powder load. In any case, I would think that slugging the bore and then using lead bullets would be prudent. The same reference shows contemporary Wehermanngewehr advertising and pictures by various makers of versions in .22 and 8.15X46R. None in 8X57. I suspect that yours may have been a custom order.

 

[Cyrano4747]

Oh wow, I am seriously envious of this one. That's an amazing gun.

re: the duffel cut, I'd personally bet more on it being a WW2 bringback than something that actually saw use at the front in WW1 and left Germany that way. The reason being that after WW2 you have a massive arms confiscation program by the occupation authorities and a TON of random civilian arms got swept up and then grabbed as trophies off the turn-in pile. I've got a relative who has a SxS shotgun that his wife's grandfather brought home that way. I have an acquaintance through a gun club who has one of those schuetzen parlor rifles that his dad grabbed the same way.

Obviously no way to know, the only reason the providence of those guns is known is that they haven't left the vet's families. Still, if I was to guess with that Gew98 that's how I'd lean.

 

[MichaelWC]

Fantastic write-up Chris. That was very a enjoyable to read and look at all the photos. I know I shared this photo with you already Chris. I'm still amazed by the rear sight leaf difference between your rifle and my Schutztruppegewehr 98. I know the rear sight leafs are calibrated for different types of ammo. The comparison between the two is still an interesting study and something you don't see everyday.


Anyways, well done Chris. Great find and buy. It will fit in perfectly with your collection.

 

[mauser1908]

Such a wonderful rifle Chris! Thanks for the great photo display.

 

[chrisftk]

BL G: This marking was familiar and I did some digging in my reference books. "Training Rifles of Third Reich Germany" has an extensive section on Wehermanngewehr rifles. A picture of a MO 1908 rifle s/n 88746 (8.15X46R) on page 416 with the caption "marking Bl. G. Sch. H. which represents Bleigeschoss, Schwacher Haltung (unjacketed soft lead bullet with reduced powder load) as a precaution against high powered loads." Others may know if your mark is a truncation of this meaning or if it refers just to the use of lead bullets, discounting the reduced powder load. In any case, I would think that slugging the bore and then using lead bullets would be prudent. The same reference shows contemporary Wehermanngewehr advertising and pictures by various makers of versions in .22 and 8.15X46R. None in 8X57. I suspect that yours may have been a custom order.

Thank you- that makes sense. I have a pre-war custom Wehrmann as well in 8.15x46r, though the sights are the later pattern for 400m.

I won't be shooting this one due to it's rarity.

Oh wow, I am seriously envious of this one. That's an amazing gun.

re: the duffel cut, I'd personally bet more on it being a WW2 bringback than something that actually saw use at the front in WW1 and left Germany that way. The reason being that after WW2 you have a massive arms confiscation program by the occupation authorities and a TON of random civilian arms got swept up and then grabbed as trophies off the turn-in pile. I've got a relative who has a SxS shotgun that his wife's grandfather brought home that way. I have an acquaintance through a gun club who has one of those schuetzen parlor rifles that his dad grabbed the same way.

Obviously no way to know, the only reason the providence of those guns is known is that they haven't left the vet's families. Still, if I was to guess with that Gew98 that's how I'd lean.

Cyrano, I'm inclined to agree. I just think the originality of it wouldn't have survived the meat grinder of WW1 if it saw any action. Being a private weapon that was later confiscated or captured in Ww2 makes a lot more sense from a plausibility standpoint..

Fantastic write-up Chris. That was very a enjoyable to read and look at all the photos. I know I shared this photo with you already Chris. I'm still amazed by the rear sight leaf difference between your rifle and my Schutztruppegewehr 98. I know the rear sight leafs are calibrated for different types of ammo. The comparison between the two is still an interesting study and something you don't see everyday.

View attachment 296880
Anyways, well done Chris. Great find and buy. It will fit in perfectly with your collection.

Thanks Mike!

Such a wonderful rifle Chris! Thanks for the great photo display.

Thanks Sam, thanks for being a bad influence and encouraging me to go for it.

 

[ernie8]

Have you slugged the bore ? That would be very interesting to see if it has a civilian bore or a military size bore .

 

[chrisftk]

Have you slugged the bore ? That would be very interesting to see if it has a civilian bore or a military size bore .

No, I've not but I agree it would be an interesting exercise. I will do so when I get a bit of time.

 

[PrayingMantis]

Great breakdown and detailed photos, Chris. Such an important rifle.

 

[feldmütze]

No indications regarding it's configuration that would indicate anything other than Patronen 88....

 

[ernie8]

That has nothing to do with it's real bore size , just the sight . The German military standard bore size starting in 1896 1/2 was .311 - .323 . Even though they were still using P-88 most Gew-88's made or rebarrelled after than and any Gew-98 had that barrel size . On the rifle in question I would bet on the .323 barrel , but for some reason they could have made it with a civilian size bore . That is why I asked .

 

[Fal Grunt]

Thanks for the detailed pictures! Awesome find, I’m always jealous that you can find AND afford all these awesome examples.

As you said, this is a truly rare time capsule!

The serial number is a commercial serial number, I’d have to look up the year, strangely I wouldn’t think it would correspond to 1903 given the numbers I have seen. I will have to double check on that though.

In regards to the chambering, my opinion would be this is a Whermannsgewehr chambered in 8x57. Cast lead bullets, like much of the 1900’s was a popular target bullet , easily made, and affordable. I don’t have my notes in front of me, but I’m confident that GEM is correct.

Fantastic example! Very neat.

 

[chrisftk]

Thanks for the detailed pictures! Awesome find, I’m always jealous that you can find AND afford all these awesome examples.

As you said, this is a truly rare time capsule!

The serial number is a commercial serial number, I’d have to look up the year, strangely I wouldn’t think it would correspond to 1903 given the numbers I have seen. I will have to double check on that though.

In regards to the chambering, my opinion would be this is a Whermannsgewehr chambered in 8x57. Cast lead bullets, like much of the 1900’s was a popular target bullet , easily made, and affordable. I don’t have my notes in front of me, but I’m confident that GEM is correct.

Fantastic example! Very neat.

Thanks as always my friend!

For what it's worth, it's definitely 8x57, though it would not chamber a jacketed S. patrone, but a 88 Patrone round nose chambered fine.

 

[Fal Grunt]

Have you slugged the bore ? That would be very interesting to see if it has a civilian bore or a military size bore .

No, I've not but I agree it would be an interesting exercise. I will do so when I get a bit of time.

That has nothing to do with it's real bore size , just the sight . The German military standard bore size starting in 1896 1/2 was .311 - .323 . Even though they were still using P-88 most Gew-88's made or rebarrelled after than and any Gew-98 had that barrel size . On the rifle in question I would bet on the .323 barrel , but for some reason they could have made it with a civilian size bore . That is why I asked .

One additional aspect, look and see if it has a SIX groove barrel.