1903 WMO Gew 98 converted to a Wehrmansgewehr (?) - looking for additional info.

[Cyrano4747]

Apologies if this is the wrong forum for this, I was debating between putting this here and in the inter-war guns forum. Mods, if this needs to be moved I've got no problems with that.

I picked up this rifle a few years ago and finally got around to trying to dig up any extra info I can on it. It's a partially sportered Wehrmansgewehr that was built off a Mauser Oberndorf Gew 98 receiver, dated 1903

Correct me if you spot me being wrong, this gun came to me as a mystery and I've been unraveling it for a while.

Here is the general condition. At some point the gun was cut down between the barrel bands:

Based on my extremely scientific method of "squinting at the wood and eyeballing how well the cut matches with the rest of the finish" I'm going to go ahead and say it was done sometime between a while ago and a long time ago.

The receiver is, as I said before, off a 1903 Oberndorf Gew 98. It's a pitty an early gun like that was turned into a target rifle, but then again preferable to me never getting my mits on it at all.

Apologies for the terrible pictures, I'm not a good photographer. If anyone needs additional or better photographs of something, just ask.

Gew 98 siderail, Crown over B and U, and the SN.

Both the stock and the handguard are numbered to match the receiver, and the stock is the earlier type with the disk rather than the disassembly tool.

Floorplate and trigger guard also match.

Markings on the underside of the receiver:

Bolt SNs also seemingly match:

Ejector too:

No serials on any of the screws.

Here's where things get interesting. The rear sight has been replaced with a windage-adjustable target sight.

[tIMG]https://i.imgur.com/TOnMFtn.jpg[/tIMG]

Manufactured I believe by Haenel, if I'm reading this right:

(to be continued, I forgot the image limit on posts here)

 

[Cyrano4747]

Part 2:

The only marking on the barrel is the maker's mark for Böhler.

It's chambered in 8.15x46r, although you won't find that info anywhere on the gun. The extractor was modified for the rimmed cartridge:

The barrel is in great shape and this thing shoots beautifully with lead 150gr bullets. Don't even get me started on what a pain making 8.15 brass is. I initially had some problems with the barrel leading, but I ended up fixing those by swapping out rifle powders for light loads of H110.

Finally, the bit that got me to buy this. Inlet into the underside of the stock is nifty evidence that someone took it to the 1934 Bundesschiessen:

The Bundesschiessen was a giant competition held irreguarly at 3-5ish year intervals. The first one was in 1862 and the 1934 shoot, planned under the Weimar Republic, was the final one before the Nazis shut it all down. There were a couple in the 60s, but after that it kind of petered out and was replaced by other competitions.

Regardless, as imperfect as my understanding of the history of German shooting clubs and their national competitions is, one thing is clear: Whoever turned this into a target rifle knew what he was doing and was good enough to be going to Lepizig in 1934. As much as I'd prefer this receiver in an original condition military rifle I do have a soft spot for target guns put together by or for shooters who know what they're doing.

Which brings me to why I'm trying to pick your collective brains.

Is there anything I should know about the gun that this once was? My understanding is that 1903 is really early for a Gew98. Storz puts the first big order with the commercial firms for Gew 98s at 1904, and before that has a smattering of smaller runs that armed just a few regiments. There's also the matter of the proofs and inspectors marks on the receiver, or rather the lack of them. The proof marks on the left side are crown/B and crown/U. I'm weak on imperial guns, but I've always associated those with commercial stamps. The right side of the receiver is completely naked:

Meanwhile, compare that to the eagle proof and the assorted inspectors marks on the 1916 Oberndorf that this rifle sits next to in my safe:

All of this has me wondering if this wasn't built off a commercial receiver. I ran across something similar with a Ludwig Loewe Gew88 that I posted an earlier thread about, so that's the direction my brain is going. Was Oberndorf making commercial Gew98s that early? I'll also note that the stock doesn't have any of the usual military stamps.

Second, I'm wondering if anyone knows about these kinds of civilian target conversions? When I first got it I'd been assuming it was a Wehrmansgewehr that came to the US before import marks were required and got cut down by someone, but now I'm not sure. Would someone making this kind of target gun back then have taken off the forward chunk of the stock like that, or was my initial assumption that it was done later more likely? What research I've done says that both Haenel and Böhler would make sense for someone building a target gun in the 20s/30s, and 8.15 was a popular enough target cartridge.

edit: And the rear sight throws me too. A lot of the Wehrmansgewehre I've seen looking for other examples have the Lange sight. But, again, I have only the most passing of knowledge with those. Am I totally off base with the Wehrmansgewehr line of thinking, and the only similarity is that it's in 8.15 rimmed and was built off a Gew98 action? My initial thoughts were based on seeing mention of both factory built Wehrmansgewehre and guns put together from surplus, and thinking this must be the latter.

Third, do the serial numbers on any of those small parts look odd to anyone else? I have a blushing familiarity at best with Imperial-era weapons but from what I've seen on the handful I have they just look a little odd. The bolt SNs in particular. If I'm right and this was a commercial gun, do those look right for commercial SNs? My other thought is that whoever built this into a target gun might have dropped in an entirely new bolt and serialed it to match the gun he was putting together.

But, again, that's all rampant speculation about things I'm fairly ignorant about, hence me asking you all. What do you all think?

If nothing else it's a neat gun. It shoots really well and I really, really love that Leipzig shield in the stock. Frankly I probably would have bought an orphaned stock that just had that embedded in it, it's such a neat little bit of pre-Nazi Schützenverein history. The fact that it was built off a fairly early Oberndorf Gew98 receiver is icing on the cake.

 

[Cyrano4747]

Interestingly a Wehrmannsgewehr with the same shield device just sold on Proxbid:

1934 HAENEL LORENZ WEHRMANNSGEWEHR TROPHY RIFLE | Proxibid

Bid in a Proxibid online auction to acquire a 1934 HAENEL LORENZ WEHRMANNSGEWEHR TROPHY RIFLE from Centurion Auctions.

www.proxibid.com

The gun is set up very different from mine (even ignoring that someone carved up my stock) with the rear sights etc. I'm very skeptical of the clam in the auction that the rifle was an award rifle, as I've seen those shields referenced in other places (mostly old RIA auctions) as a "competition shield." I need to dig more on the 1934 Bundesschiessen to get a solid answer but it's not a priority at the moment. My assumption has always been it was the sort of thing handed out to participants, similar to how you'll see competition rifles today plastered in stickers.

 

[PrayingMantis]

Sorry I missed this when you first posted it. Very nice commercial Gewehr! It is not a conversion of a military rifle, rather it was made for the civilian market. I have one dated 1917, you might find reading the thread helpful in learning about yours: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/commercial-gewehr-98-wmo-1917-1591.44098/

 

[Fal Grunt]

This is a commercial rifle, as PrayingMantis said. The receiver serial shows that it was a left over receiver, possibly numbered after the war. Interesting in that receivers were a supposed bottleneck through the war. Likely this receiver had minor issues and it was set aside, later being built into a Whermanns Gewehr. It is possible, but I would have to do more searching, that it was originally a prewar Whermanns Gewehr.

The Haenel sight is a later addition.

The bolt may or may not have been renumbered. It should have a BU proof with the serial number.

 

[Cyrano4747]

Sorry I missed this when you first posted it. Very nice commercial Gewehr! It is not a conversion of a military rifle, rather it was made for the civilian market. I have one dated 1917, you might find reading the thread helpful in learning about yours: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/commercial-gewehr-98-wmo-1917-1591.44098/

Interesting. Thanks for the info, and thanks for the thread link.

I need to read up more on the commercial rifles.

The receiver serial shows that it was a left over receiver, possibly numbered after the war.

The info I've got (which is limited to Speed's book on commercial rifles) points to it being way outside the SN range for 1903, but pre-war as far as that goes. The 60,000 range reported by him is all in 1912. What about it says post-war to you?

All this reminds me, I really need to cook up some more ammo for this thing.